The Actions Of Two People

[Pete]

Its true that I'd reject the Koran because I don't believe its inspired, and of course it contradicts what I do believe. That's probably the same reason you reject the bible. Since you don't accept the bible as God's word, it stands to reason that you would reject what fundamentalist say about it.

Someone quoted this once before ;

When Stephen Roberts, an athiest, was talking to a theist about the thousands of gods and goddesses worshiped by humans, he said: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

And that amazes me... Someone dies so you can live and you interpret it as a twisted perversion? God has always forgiven people for sin, but the wages of sin are death and someone had to pay. God would not and could not be righteous otherwise. To not atone for the significance of sin and its cruel effects would be unjust, and I personally prefer a 'Just' God. Everybody wants the resurrection; nobody wants the crucifixion, but one cannot occur without the other.

How do you know if Jesus was actually a wise, caring and kind person, who did love God? Or that Christ ever existed at all? If the gospels are true, then the authors didn't adopt the Hebrew scriptures to prove Christ was the Messiah, but the scriptures themselves substantiated it. Remember that Christ himself often referred to the scriptures, he first quoted Isaiah 61:1 in Luke 4:18 proclaiming who he was. My point is that the gospels are either true or false, if a person can't believe Christ was the Messiah, then it would seem illogical to believe he was a kind person. Otherwise your trusting part of what's written while denying other parts.

Here you go again. You say I reject the bible I actually reject the church's spin on it and how they use it but not the bible.

I believe that the roman church destroyed many of the writings that they objected to and I am sure we would not of got hold of the Nag Hummandi or the Gospel of Thomas or the dead sea scrolls if they had got their hands on every copy. There were differing groups who viewed Jesus differently after his death and Paul view was not the only one. His view was the one that eventually appealed to the gentile audience of Rome. Groups like the Ebonites or the Gnostics did not and yet they too had scripture. Interestingly to me the Ebonites used to have their own version of Matthew and they rejected all the writings of Paul. They also continued to celebrate Jewish customs. Yet we have no copies of their scriptures but I hope one day they will be found. We also have the Didache which also talks about Jesus but in a very Jewish sense and its version of the communion ceremony is very different to that of Paul and contained no references to Jesus being a sacrifice or the Wine and Bread being the blood and Body of Jesus. As I have said before the idea of taking in blood and human blood at that was alien to the jews. Its right up there with telling them to eat pork.

Paul was from Tarsus which was a Roman free trading port found in what is nowadays southern Turkey. He was exposed to Pagan concepts of taking in the blood of the Gods to share with them and other concepts around at the time like death and resurrection and dying with them in spirit in order to be participate with them. He also admits he did not get what he taught from the disciples or anyone in Galatians chapter one and chapter two shows he was out of step with them. It is only when one brings in books that are considered as forgeries like Peter 1&2 that you get a disciple agreeing with Paul. Paul also contradicts the version of his relationship with the disciples found in Acts.

The church as Paul did, uses many OT verses to promote the idea of Jesus being the Messiah and the sacrifice for sin but those verses when taken to their original meaning bear no relationship to Jesus or foretell of his arrival 800yrs later.

We have that classic Christmas boast about Jesus being born in Isaiah ch9, but in actual fact was not about Jesus but about reasuring the king that the people of Israel will continue.

http://thejewishhome.org/counter/Isa9_56.pdf

Then we have the suffering servant that you have quoted from Isaiah 53 as meaning Jesus which was actually written about the Jewish people and not Jesus.

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Isaiah_53_The_Suffering_Servant.html

In fact much of what the church claims as prophesy for Jesus really never meant Jesus.

Despite Paul's boast he was a Jewish scholar I believe this to be untrue. No Jewish follower of Judaism would say that following the Torah was a curse or a burden as Paul describes in Hebrews. In fact followers followers of Judaism see it as a joy.

Then we come to your view of God being righteous for wanting something to die in order that he could therefore forgive. I really cannot see how killing the innocent as a sacrifice or not being able to forgive someone unless something or someone dies as being righteous. I do not see how the lack of compassion on people and the unjustly handing out of punishment forever described in the bible as righteous. I still cannot see how destroying cities and all the innocent people in them in order to punish David could be seen as righteous. I also do not understand if God is so perfect and that the crown of his creation was mankind because they were in the image of God and yet it was mankind that was able to be led astray and created the evil in the world. Something is just not perfect there in my view and it cannot be mankind for having this fatal flaw because they never made themselves with it.

I could go on and on, but the short of it, for me, is although you quote this and that, but when I look at it in context it all makes little sense to me. I love much of the bible stories but as for seeing perfection in it, I do not. I just see the hand of mankind. Now I do not reject the bible in the context of it having things it can teach but I do in reject it in terms of it being the all the work of a superior being who filled it full of contradictions and inconsistencies and odd values. It's fundamentalism that I reject and not the bible. Its the way fundamentalism portrays the bible that I reject and not the bible. I love some of the teachings of Jesus but find they are at odds with fundamentalism. I know you even take the words of Paul as those of Jesus because you believe they are of the same source. Well I feel Jesus and Paul were very different. We will not agree.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Pete

[BrDevon]

Fawzo, on 08 Jun 2013 - 2:52 PM, said:

Dan this is the very same twisted perversion of love that both Pete. myself and others object to. The idea that Jesus had to basically commit suicide to save us from his vain, jealous, angry, vengeful, insecure Father who is incapable of forgiving even the smallest of offences.

And that amazes me... Someone dies so you can live and you interpret it as a twisted perversion? God has always forgiven people for sin, but the wages of sin are death and someone had to pay. God would not and could not be righteous otherwise. To not atone for the significance of sin and its cruel effects would be unjust, and I personally prefer a 'Just' God. Everybody wants the resurrection; nobody wants the crucifixion, but one cannot occur without the other.

---

Would it be suicide when the firefighters and rescuers entered the twin towers on 9/11 to save people? Is it suicide when members of the military die to defend our freedom?

If someone you loved was facing a gruesome death, would you not want to stop it? If you are a parent and you face the reality of having to watch your child die or being able to die in their place, would you not choose your own death?

To a Christian believer, Jesus the son is God the Father who walked on earth. It is no harder for me to believe He would choose death to save His children than it is for me to believe any parent would (and I am not a parent!). The part that still amazes me to this day is that He thought I was worth it. (Emphasis on the word I - some people might have been worth it, but I don't always think I was worth Jesus dying. I'm just thankful it was His choice and not mine.)

And yes, I do believe that the church has corrupted a lot of what was the Bible to fit certain agendas. But I do not see the Bible as infallible. I do see it as the best source of information I have. That does not dilute or discount my belief in the Holy Trinity or the crucifixion. If I do not believe Jesus died for me, then my life isn't worth a pile of doggy doo (self assessment. Your opinion may vary.)

[Pete]

Fawzo, on 08 Jun 2013 - 2:52 PM, said:

And that amazes me... Someone dies so you can live and you interpret it as a twisted perversion? God has always forgiven people for sin, but the wages of sin are death and someone had to pay. God would not and could not be righteous otherwise. To not atone for the significance of sin and its cruel effects would be unjust, and I personally prefer a 'Just' God. Everybody wants the resurrection; nobody wants the crucifixion, but one cannot occur without the other.

---

Would it be suicide when the firefighters and rescuers entered the twin towers on 9/11 to save people? Is it suicide when members of the military die to defend our freedom?

If someone you loved was facing a gruesome death, would you not want to stop it? If you are a parent and you face the reality of having to watch your child die or being able to die in their place, would you not choose your own death?

To a Christian believer, Jesus the son is God the Father who walked on earth. It is no harder for me to believe He would choose death to save His children than it is for me to believe any parent would (and I am not a parent!). The part that still amazes me to this day is that He thought I was worth it. (Emphasis on the word I - some people might have been worth it, but I don't always think I was worth Jesus dying. I'm just thankful it was His choice and not mine.)

And yes, I do believe that the church has corrupted a lot of what was the Bible to fit certain agendas. But I do not see the Bible as infallible. I do see it as the best source of information I have. That does not dilute or discount my belief in the Holy Trinity or the crucifixion. If I do not believe Jesus died for me, then my life isn't worth a pile of doggy doo (self assessment. Your opinion may vary.)

I believe the twisted way that Fawzo referred to was not that someone may give their lives for another out of love and concern. I believe actually Jesus did that. The twisted way that was being referred to was the insistence that God could not forgive in any other way except insisting someone or something needed to die in order to get that forgiveness and that this is somehow righteous. I also agree according to the bible God forgave errors (call it sin if you want) without sacrifices being present but that message is not what is being presented today.

If one looks at fundamentalism (IMO) in context then we have an obscure person of his time living among a small and obscure people of their time presenting the only message of salvation for the world as written in a book that took years to compile and decide what must go in it and even now people cannot all agree on what it means.

We also have a perfect God portrayed as someone who made a fallible being and subject to error and described this as in the image of God and his crowning glory of creation. Who is said to have killed himself (except God does not die and cannot die and therefore it is not death as we know it) as a punishment for the errors were that being made by his creation and insisting on this being the only sacrifice for all. We have fundamentalism that insists that no one was saved by the law which was said to have been given from God but despite being declared as righteous it has reports that God carries out some terrible acts (IMO) and has laws that I personally cannot see as righteous. I could list them if you wish but I feel I could fill the forum.

I respect your belief in the Trinity and I respect Dan's right to believe as he does but I will not accept that I should not be equally respected and recognized as someone who follows Jesus and has respect for the bible even if we see it in differing ways and I do not agree at all with what fundamentalism says.

[Dianna]

Dan56

How do you know if Jesus was actually a wise, caring and kind person, who did love God? Or that Christ ever existed at all? If the gospels are true, then the authors didn't adopt the Hebrew scriptures to prove Christ was the Messiah, but the scriptures themselves substantiated it. Remember that Christ himself often referred to the scriptures, he first quoted Isaiah 61:1 in Luke 4:18 proclaiming who he was. My point is that the gospels are either true or false, if a person can't believe Christ was the Messiah, then it would seem illogical to believe he was a kind person. Otherwise your trusting part of what's written while denying other parts.

I can believe Jesus existed for the same reason I believe Buddha, Bahá'u'lláh and others existed. I don't have trouble believing any of them were kind persons. I have no way of knowing if he quoted Scripture. The books of the New Testament were written nearly 50 years after his death - again, it could have been attributed to him, to "prove" to encourage and convince his growing number of followers that he had been the Messiah. and used specific Scripture to make the point. I don't know, I admit that, that's why the questions. But I do know that if you'd ask my mom or dad to tell me everything they could about someone they'd known 50 years ago, the details and exact words and deeds would be summed up and refined and told from the context of the knowledge of now, looking back, "I always knew Joe would make it in politics - you should have heard what he told the mayor back in high school ..."

The Romans were horrible to the early Christians. You literally risked your life by becoming a believer. I do believe the writers of the gospels all those years later, felt a huge need and responsibility to encourage new followers that Jesus was worth the threat of torture and grisly death.

[Pete]

You bring up another issue Dianna in that the NT is not presented in a chronological form. Paul's letters were said to have been written first and then the gospel of Mark (minus the resurrection parts), then Matthew and later Luke. Then around the turn of the century John was written. Later still the book of acts was written. There is a great debate between the fundamentalist and the liberal school as what the dates were but a good guide (IMO) is found at the earlychristianwritings site See:- http://earlychristianwritings.com/

For me it shows when presented in the chronological form the influence of Paul's teachings ahead of that of the gospels writers and his influence upon them. .

[Fawzo]

Fawzo, on 08 Jun 2013 - 2:52 PM, said:

And that amazes me... Someone dies so you can live and you interpret it as a twisted perversion? God has always forgiven people for sin, but the wages of sin are death and someone had to pay. God would not and could not be righteous otherwise. To not atone for the significance of sin and its cruel effects would be unjust, and I personally prefer a 'Just' God. Everybody wants the resurrection; nobody wants the crucifixion, but one cannot occur without the other.

---

Would it be suicide when the firefighters and rescuers entered the twin towers on 9/11 to save people? Is it suicide when members of the military die to defend our freedom?

If someone you loved was facing a gruesome death, would you not want to stop it? If you are a parent and you face the reality of having to watch your child die or being able to die in their place, would you not choose your own death?

To a Christian believer, Jesus the son is God the Father who walked on earth. It is no harder for me to believe He would choose death to save His children than it is for me to believe any parent would (and I am not a parent!). The part that still amazes me to this day is that He thought I was worth it. (Emphasis on the word I - some people might have been worth it, but I don't always think I was worth Jesus dying. I'm just thankful it was His choice and not mine.)

And yes, I do believe that the church has corrupted a lot of what was the Bible to fit certain agendas. But I do not see the Bible as infallible. I do see it as the best source of information I have. That does not dilute or discount my belief in the Holy Trinity or the crucifixion. If I do not believe Jesus died for me, then my life isn't worth a pile of doggy doo (self assessment. Your opinion may vary.)

Pete has it correct in that I do not think that it is a perversion of love for someone to want to bear the suffering of ones they love in their place. Such acts are examples of true selfless unconditional love.

The perversion is in calling the person or Entity who would require and accept such an act of sacrifice as a necessary requirement before they are able to forgive another sentient being their debt an act of LOVE. Apparently Forgiveness and Mercy have different definitions in Christianity then they do in the real world.

Forgiveness does not involve a required atonement of any type. Such a requirement becomes extraction at best and extortion at worst. In Christianity someone paid the price that was due, nothing was forgiven. The price was paid in blood, guts and suffering No Mercy Showed. Your debt to God was not forgiven in the least it was transferred upon another being who died and suffered an horrible agonizing death, in your place, while an unbending debtor watched as his own Son was tortured to pay the price God himself set and was unwavering in not granting forgiveness of any kind.

Your self assessment of your life without Christianity is a perfect example of the psychological problems I feel indoctrination in Christianity has created in our world. Firstly the guilt for having an innocent sentient being die in your place because you feel your life is worth less then doggy doo has to have some type of effect on the subconscious. Secondly if you view your own life in this manner how must you view and judge the lives of others. I cannot see how levels of low self esteem cannot be increased even if only on a subconscious level.

Myself and others here see your life as way more important then doogy doo my friend. You have enriched the lives of thousands if not more with your actions and the way you care about others. Jesus dying on the cross didn't do that, you do because of love and compassion for others. Yes Jesus may be the point of focus you use to help you focus your energies in that direction, but the cross doesn't need to be the only point of focus that people use to focus and behave thusly, and such people as yourself don't cease to exist if the name of Jesus was never heard of in our world. Many people recognize the Divine Spark of love that rests hidden at the core of every individual and would behave Christlike if Christ never even existed. Think of the great Mystics before Jesus even walked the earth and after that don't accept his bloody sacrifice as a necessity before they can partake of the love of the Divine.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Fawzo

[BrDevon]

I respect your belief in the Trinity and I respect Dan's right to believe as he does but I will not accept that I should not be equally respected and recognized as someone who follows Jesus and has respect for the bible even if we see it in differing ways and I do not agree at all with what fundamentalism says.

I was riding right there on the same bus with you, and then we hit that speed bump. I hope you never thought that I would think less of anyone that did not follow the same path as I choose. Who is to say I am on the right path? I believe I am, but there's only one way to find out if I got it right, and even then, only according to what I choose to believe.

But with minimal exception there are few religious beliefs or lack thereof that would cause me to think one would be less worthy of my respect. It would be one thing if someone were of the belief that those who did not follow their path were inferior or deserving of harm. I think neither. If you do not believe as I, it is simply that - your belief is different, and every bit as valid for you as mine is for me.

[BrDevon]

Your self assessment of your life without Christianity is a perfect example of the psychological problems I feel indoctrination in Christianity has created in our world. Firstly the guilt for having an innocent sentient being die in your place because you feel your life is worth less then doggy doo has to have some type of effect on the subconscious. Secondly if you view your own life in this manner how must you view and judge the lives of others. I cannot see how levels of low self esteem cannot be increased even if only on a subconscious level.

The only one on this earth I have a right to judge is my own self. In my own belief, I am actually commanded not to judge, lest I be judged in the same manner I apply to others (God forbid!). I honestly don't feel a sense of guilt over Jesus' crucifixion, though I do believe I am not deserving of it. I realize that many branches of Christianity control the masses (pun not intended) through guilt and mind games. I am past that. I used to believe that way, and then I realized that I can live liberated from that. I don't need guilt and mind games. I can simply accept that Jesus chose to become sin and die so that I would not have to face judgment. All I can say is it works for me. It's not a mindset for everyone, and I don't expect anyone else to go with it.

Even as deaf as I am becoming, I understand that in a piano, if you play a middle C, all other strings in the piano turned to a C will start to vibrate. The note resonates to the other strings because they are attuned to that note. Truth is the same. We each have a truth that will resonate within us. It makes no sense to try to play a different tune. A tuning fork is only capable of making one sound - the one to which it is tuned. That is it's truth. If I tried to convert you to my belief, it would only serve to make hypocrites of us both if you followed.

[Pete]

.

Thanks Brother Devon, I have a lot of respect for you. I just get a little touchy when phrases are used like "You have rejected the bible" when what has happened is that I have a differing understanding of the bible and sentences that start with " To a Christian believer" because it appears to suggest that all Christians think alike and if I want to use such a title (which I do) I should agree with this too. I may not agree with the so called fundamental beliefs that conservatives do but I still see myself as a Christian albeit Liberal. Like you I do not presume to say that my view is the correct one or the only correct one. I believe there is that of God in all. I also believe God to be more understanding then some religions are or have been. We may disagree but we are not God and are not gifted with complete understanding. I know I do not often quote Paul but this rings a bell with me "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." NIV 1 Corinthians 13:12

I guess that is where we all stand at present

Edited June 9, 2013 by Pete

[Fawzo]

The only one on this earth I have a right to judge is my own self. In my own belief, I am actually commanded not to judge, lest I be judged in the same manner I apply to others (God forbid!). I honestly don't feel a sense of guilt over Jesus' crucifixion, though I do believe I am not deserving of it. I realize that many branches of Christianity control the masses (pun not intended) through guilt and mind games. I am past that. I used to believe that way, and then I realized that I can live liberated from that. I don't need guilt and mind games. I can simply accept that Jesus chose to become sin and die so that I would not have to face judgment. All I can say is it works for me. It's not a mindset for everyone, and I don't expect anyone else to go with it.

Even as deaf as I am becoming, I understand that in a piano, if you play a middle C, all other strings in the piano turned to a C will start to vibrate. The note resonates to the other strings because they are attuned to that note. Truth is the same. We each have a truth that will resonate within us. It makes no sense to try to play a different tune. A tuning fork is only capable of making one sound - the one to which it is tuned. That is it's truth. If I tried to convert you to my belief, it would only serve to make hypocrites of us both if you followed.

I love your last analogy of the piano keys and notes. How could anyone ever imagine that God would desire an orchestra of all middle C notes. We can see plainly by the Universe that reflects a portion of his majesty that he loves diversity, color and change.

So clearly any belief system that teaches their way is the only way isn't paying very close attention to what the great Creator desires.

[Dan56]

I just get a little touchy when phrases are used like "You have rejected the bible" when what has happened is that I have a differing understanding of the bible and sentences that start with " To a Christian believer" because it appears to suggest that all Christians think alike and if I want to use such a title (which I do) I should agree with this too. I may not agree with the so called fundamental beliefs that conservatives do but I still see myself as a Christian albeit Liberal.

Just to clarify Pete, I don't mean to be critical when I say "you have rejected the bible". That's just my observation and opinion of anyone who views the bible as corrupt and non-inspired. From my fundamental pov, rejecting the sacrifice and purpose of Christ is tantamount to rejecting the NT and Christianity. But I understand that you do accept it as a fictional book with some meaningful sayings. You basically look at the synoptic gospels the same way I look at the gnostics, and I reject the gnostic gospels for the same reasons.

[Pete]

Just to clarify Pete, I don't mean to be critical when I say "you have rejected the bible". That's just my observation and opinion of anyone who views the bible as corrupt and non-inspired. From my fundamental pov, rejecting the sacrifice and purpose of Christ is tantamount to rejecting the NT and Christianity. But I understand that you do accept it as a fictional book with some meaningful sayings. You basically look at the synoptic gospels the same way I look at the gnostics, and I reject the gnostic gospels for the same reasons.

I say again, that I do not reject the bible. Just how fundamentalism sees it. I do not give fundamentalism the right to say how I should or should not see it. Your wrong that I see the synoptic Gospels in the same light as I do the Gnostic Gospels but each one gives an insight into how people saw things back then and its history. You see every word as God spoken and I see the word of history as having meaning for me. I feel it is typical for you to say I reject this and that because that is how fundamentalist groups have always seen things (IMO). There are those who the in crowd and those who are the outsiders. I see the truth coming from many areas and you see it as from only the one.

Hence, you can look at condemnation as being just for those who disagree with your viewpoint but I see for everyone condemn either in judgement day or whatever as another light going out and an increase in the darkness. We are not going to agree but Jesus has meaning for me despite how you see it. Reject that or reject it not but I do not care for rejection. There are some lovely people in this world and I will never agree to their rejection just because they do not sign up to a given dogma. That to me was never what Jesus was about (IMO).

[Pete]

I guess I am tired. This month I hear of a poor soldier being stabbed to death in the streets of London by two persons, six other individuals planning to plant a bomb in the UK in hope of starting a ** for tat reaction with the British public, Mosques being set on fire all over the country and I heard about a 15 year old boy being killed by being shot in the face in front of his Mother and Father for being an "atheist" and the one thing they all have in common is that they were purpetrated by people who could not see beyond their dogma.

I know fundamentalist Christians do not want to go about stabbing people but they do feel it is righteous that God will judge everyone who disagrees with a single given belief and cast them into eternal hell and torture for it. Something I find very disturbing and wonder what kind of God cannot love beyond dogma and what kind of persons follow that viewpoint without question.

Sorry if this offends but its been a tough month emotionally for me.

[Fawzo]

I guess I am tired. This month I hear of a poor soldier being stabbed to death in the streets of London by two persons, six other individuals planning to plant a bomb in the UK in hope of starting a ** for tat reaction with the British public, Mosques being set on fire all over the country and I heard about a 15 year old boy being killed by being shot in the face in front of his Mother and Father for being an "atheist" and the one thing they all have in common is that they were purpetrated by people who could not see beyond their dogma.

I know fundamentalist Christians do not want to go about stabbing people but they do feel it is righteous that God will judge everyone who disagrees with a single given belief and cast them into eternal hell and torture for it. Something I find very disturbing and wonder what kind of God cannot love beyond dogma and what kind of persons follow that viewpoint without question.

Sorry if this offends but its been a tough month emotionally for me.

My answers to your question are insecure ignorant gullible people and nothing that I could even remotely label as any type of sophisticated God would behave thusly.

Saying that though a Dan like thought immediately popped into my head of what kind of parameters would I set to insure my children would learn not to harm and infringe upon one another's precious gift of free will which I have bestowed upon them, or could that quite possibly be the whole point of this exercise in physicality which we perceive and experience.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Fawzo

[Pete]

I do not think a person needs a religion to teach the value of another human being or a be a church goer to have moral values. I also do not believe that attending a church as a child automatically means your children will grow up to have moral values.

Joseph Stalin trained to be a priest before he was a dictator.

[Dan56]

I guess I am tired. This month I hear of a poor soldier being stabbed to death in the streets of London by two persons, six other individuals planning to plant a bomb in the UK in hope of starting a ** for tat reaction with the British public, Mosques being set on fire all over the country and I heard about a 15 year old boy being killed by being shot in the face in front of his Mother and Father for being an "atheist" and the one thing they all have in common is that they were purpetrated by people who could not see beyond their dogma.

I know fundamentalist Christians do not want to go about stabbing people but they do feel it is righteous that God will judge everyone who disagrees with a single given belief and cast them into eternal hell and torture for it. Something I find very disturbing and wonder what kind of God cannot love beyond dogma and what kind of persons follow that viewpoint without question.

Sorry if this offends but its been a tough month emotionally for me.

Islamist murdered that soldier, Islamist murdered the 15 year old boy, and the 6 men who planned to plant the bomb were Islamic extremist. I'm sensing one particular type of dogma that's behind these evil killers, and its not those crazy Christian fundamentalist

Consider the difference;

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" (Quran 8:12), verses; "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:44)

Such a peaceful and loving religion;

• Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
• Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood (9:123)
• When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
• Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam (9:29)
• Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
• The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
• Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam. (5:33)
• The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
• Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies (2:19))
• Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
• The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
• Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
• Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)
• Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels (8:60)

[Pete]

Dan we can all pick out the worst verses from text in scriptures. It is unfair to judge all Christians by such verses so why do you judge Muslims by such verses. I also note that there were mosques being set on fire in many places in the UK. It is not the Muslims doing that.

From the bible:-:

1. "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet." (1 Timothy 2:12)
2. "Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses." (1 Samuel 15:3)
3. "You shall not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:18)
4. "Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." (Psalm 137:9)
5. "When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go. Then at daybreak the woman came and collapsed at the entrance of the house in which her husband was a guest, where she lay until the morning. When her husband rose that day and opened the door of the house to start out again on his journey, there lay the woman, his concubine, at the entrance of the house with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, 'Come, let us go'; but there was no answer. So the man placed her on an ass and started out again for home." (Judges 19:25-28)
6. "And the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity." (Romans 1:27)
7. "Jephthah made a vow to the Lord. 'If you deliver the Ammonites into my power,' he said, 'whoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites shall belong to the Lord. I shall offer him up as a holocaust.' ... When Jephthah returned to his house in Mizpah, it was his daughter who came forth, playing the tambourines and dancing. She was an only child: he had neither son nor daughter besides her. When he saw her, he rent his garments and said, 'Alas, daughter, you have struck me down and brought calamity upon me. For I have made a vow to the Lord and I cannot retract'." (Judges 11:30-1, 34-5)
8. "Then God said: 'Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you'."(Genesis 22:2)
9. "Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord." (Ephesians 5:22)
10. "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)

from:- http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/09/top_ten_worst_b.html

Edited June 12, 2013 by Pete

[Dan56]

Dan we can all pick out the worst verses from text in scriptures. It is unfair to judge all Christians by such verses so why do you judge Muslims by such verses. I also note that there were mosques being set on fire in many places in the UK. It is not the Muslims doing that.

I wasn't judging all Muslims, but just pointing out the dogma that helps instigate the violent attacks. There are extremist in Christianity too, but the acts of violence that you specifically mentioned are prevalent to Islamic extremist. I'll admit that I don't like the religion, but am aware that most Muslims don't subscribe to murder. The Muslim population in London is one of the largest of all major European cities, so I'd anticipate some more emotionally upsetting months. I see a big difference in what Mohammed taught from what Christ taught, so my objective was to simply point it out.

[Pete]

I wasn't judging all Muslims, but just pointing out the dogma that helps instigate the violent attacks. There are extremist in Christianity too, but the acts of violence that you specifically mentioned are prevalent to Islamic extremist. I'll admit that I don't like the religion, but am aware that most Muslims don't subscribe to murder. The Muslim population in London is one of the largest of all major European cities, so I'd anticipate some more emotionally upsetting months. I see a big difference in what Mohammed taught from what Christ taught, so my objective was to simply point it out.

Islamist murdered that soldier, Islamist murdered the 15 year old boy, and the 6 men who planned to plant the bomb were Islamic extremist. I'm sensing one particular type of dogma that's behind these evil killers, and its not those crazy Christian fundamentalist

Consider the difference;

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" (Quran 8:12), verses; "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:44)

Such a peaceful and loving religion;

How was this sarcastic comment not judging all Islam and therefore all Muslims?

Lets look at other verses of the Koran from this quote by Sami Zaatari :-

:-

There are some who would have you believe that the Noble Quran does not respect human life, yet is this the reality? What does the Quran have to say in respect to human life? Is it negative, or is positive? To find out, let us quote the Quran itself, and then we can all come to a proper conclusion.

The Noble Quran states the following:

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)

According to the Quran, if one kills an innocent person, it is like he has killed the whole of humanity! By the same token, if one saved a life, it would be like he has saved the whole of humanity! This teaching is a great example of the Quran’s respect for human life.

Let us now quote several other verses which proves this point even further:

Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the Law). (17:33)

Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. (6:151)

So with all of these verses how can one say that the Quran does not respect the sanctity of life?

And Allah Knows Best!"

from:- http://ilovemuhammed.com/noble-quran/noble-teachings/38-the-quran-and-respect-for-human-life

I know you believe in the death penalty because you have told me so in the past and we disagreed over it. How are you any different to the theme of these quotes?

[Brother Kaman]

I wasn't judging all Muslims, but just pointing out the dogma that helps instigate the violent attacks. There are extremist in Christianity too, but the acts of violence that you specifically mentioned are prevalent to Islamic extremist. I'll admit that I don't like the religion, but am aware that most Muslims don't subscribe to murder. The Muslim population in London is one of the largest of all major European cities, so I'd anticipate some more emotionally upsetting months. I see a big difference in what Mohammed taught from what Christ taught, so my objective was to simply point it out.

I would not judge Christians but it was Christians who murdered the native population in America to near extinction. I don't think they were extremist, either. Just good old God fearing citizens. I heard tell that Muhammad Ali was asked what he thought of the 9-ll terrorist sharing his religion. He asked back what the questioner thought of Hitler sharing his. One group attacks another for whatever reason and then it becomes a blood feud of revenge. Burning a peaceful Mosque, Synagogue or Church, it is all hate, preached by bitter twisted men.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Brother Kaman