Welfare

[kokigami]

Your experience is a data point, but just one amoung many. The fact that she can't get help now doesn't mean that there are not a lot of working poor who do get help. She has moved into the tar pit realm where assistance has disappeared but the path forward is not clear.

[revtimothybland]

I'm working poor and can't get assistance, she's working poor who can't get assistance, and I know a lot of people who are working poor who can't get assistance, and yet, you STILL claim that the majority of people getting governmental help are working poor?

Yes, my experience is just one of many data points in the whole shebang, but to read the other points as you do is just a little naive. Admittedly, I may be a touch cynical in the whole thing, but after looking at not only the previously provided links on this thread, but also my own research, I cannot believe as you do. We need Welfare Reforms.

[Assassin]

Its true go to an office and ask people if they work or just associate with people who are on it they usually get it spend what they want and then sale the rest for cash which is very illegal and to me that is not right at all. I can understand if your working poor key word WORKING but the majority of people getting support are people lying to the system or just lazy.

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[kokigami]

I'm working poor and can't get assistance, she's working poor who can't get assistance, and I know a lot of people who are working poor who can't get assistance, and yet, you STILL claim that the majority of people getting governmental help are working poor?

Yes, my experience is just one of many data points in the whole shebang, but to read the other points as you do is just a little naive. Admittedly, I may be a touch cynical in the whole thing, but after looking at not only the previously provided links on this thread, but also my own research, I cannot believe as you do. We need Welfare Reforms.

there a lot of working poor who can't get assistance. Agreed. But that doesn't mean there are not a lot of working poor on assistance. Because, there are A LOT of working poor. And the number is rising. And since the system for support is shrinking, more and more people will be working poor without assistance.. We do need welfare reform. How to reform it is the question.

This has a great deal to do with wealth distribution. The current welfare system will help a person pay rent to a landlord, so the landlord benefits, but won't help to pay a mortgage, so the person benefits. That seems like a system rigged for those who own capital to keep others from obtaining capital. It will pay for food to a retailer, but, if you grow your own food, you can't redirect that money for other needs or investments. It generally will help in crisis, but not to try to prevent crisis (like heat assistance, or emergency medicine..)

Welfare needs reform, because currently it incentivizes crisis. Tie the top tier tax rate to unemployment, and raise the minimum wage. redefine unemployment to include under-employment. Remove barriers to education - which is becoming a massive debt trap - and dismantle corporations. Forbid any congress person 9perhaps judges and executive branch as well) from taking any income, gifts, gratuities or favors other than their salary.

that might be a good start.

[kokigami]

Its true go to an office and ask people if they work or just associate with people who are on it they usually get it spend what they want and then sale the rest for cash which is very illegal and to me that is not right at all. I can understand if your working poor key word WORKING but the majority of people getting support are people lying to the system or just lazy.

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you want to do some research and back up the claim..?

this guy has done my work for me..

[Assassin]

That was funny thanks for the laugh.

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[revtimothybland]

That article has a lot of crude language to try to get its point across, don't it? Sorry, but if a person can't use normal language to at least SOUND intelligent, then I put almost NO STOCK whatsoever in what they have to say.

So I agree with Assassin. Thanks for the laugh.

[Assassin]

I wouldn't post a comment about research unless I did the foot work and how I can back my opinion up is a few years back one of my so called friends said that the majority of people on assistance are other than white and thats the nice way of putting it. I am white and my wife happens to be black I have mixed kids and to me that was not at all true so I went down to the local food stamp office and took a picture of the inside of the building and the outside sign to prove my point when I posted the pictures on facebook I was atomatically deleted by him. That being said I wanted to research more so I started asking around about who qualifies and who doesn't and that is were I get my info by going out and doing research not sitting on a chair in front of my computer coping and pasting web sites.

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[revtimothybland]

Same here.

[Atwater Vitki]

That article has a lot of crude language to try to get its point across, don't it? Sorry, but if a person can't use normal language to at least SOUND intelligent, then I put almost NO STOCK whatsoever in what they have to say.

So I agree with Assassin. Thanks for the laugh.

I do agree with you about the language as it does not add to the credibility of the author...buuuut....

you want to do some research and back up the claim..?

this guy has done my work for me..

The article does reflect numbers close to what my neighbor (who works at the Dept. of Human Services) says about the condition of clientèle. And even at risk of losing her job has continuously reported to her supervisors that...people are stuck in the system....because it's like everything else in the democratic system, it either is or it isn't. The biggest thing to overcome being on Welfare is one day you have a minimal income but you have dang near 100% health care for your kids, which is how 99% of recipients qualify in the first place, and then poof, if you get off the system you don't have jack squat that day.

Assassin, I agree with you very much on your statement: "but the majority of people getting support are people lying to the system or just lazy"

But why do they lie? (Yes 'why' is an important part of it!) It's human nature to "get away with" as much as we can so if incomes or other false reports are put down by the recipient it is the Case Worker's job to verify all info put down by the applicant..."how the applicant acts at our intake interview determines how we follow up...I have over 760 case files on my desk and only 7½ hours per day to deal with that stack..do the math!...my neighbor.

My neighbor is 58 years old and looks 78 due to the stresses of her occupation as a case worker for the welfare department...she heroically thought "she could make a difference" in 1984 when she started there. She's a decent, hardworking honest person while at home and attending Neighbor Meetings, at work..??...she'd either have lost her job or been thrown in jail for some of the on the spot decisions she's made on case-files..it's the part of the job that is never discussed, never put into the job title description or asked about at the employment intake interview.

Her "solution" is people should be eased off welfare instead of just dropped. If people had a transition period of 6months to a year to make sense of and evaluate their real insurance needs, adjusted income etc etc far more would be willing to get off the system.

The bottom line is the system is no more perfect than the people working or applying for benefits within it. It is a system created by energetic forward thinking folks in the late 40's and early 50's and as far as "overhauls" go, there been a few feeble attempts over the years to fix a few minor cracks in a dam that has been hit by a dam buster bomb of massive unemployed, underemployed and selfish deviates...in essence there are more cracks than there is dam holding back the flood waters of social change.

For any one of us to say we have the "answer" is absurd, but we can all work together towards a better future one case file at a time. $30k a year to administer 760 case files? ...frankly I don't know how the system snookers people to work for it beside great medical and dental, great parking spots and many positions offer a work car...but overall...it would be difficult to get many BA's and BS degrees, let alone the Master's that many positions require...to work for the pittance (in today's world) of a mere $30k/year.

Being ON Welfare isn't easy, overseeing the case load isn't easy, being the governing part of the System isn't easy. So we all know what the struggles are and how helpless many people feel about changing the system. What most forget is...We either change it or become apathetic to the way things are.

Since so few folks seem 'satisfied' what are the suggestions for helpful, adequate Change?

Blessings of Peace,

[Kingfisher]

I've seen all types of recipients in every welfare office I've ever been in. All the examples provided are true. What I have also seen is a lot of frustrated social workers who know the difference between those who are really trying hard and need more help and those who are just playing the system, but they can't do anything because their hands have been tied with red tape by ideologues from both sides. The larger a bureaucracy grows the less efficiently it can do the job it was designed to do and the more it becomes about blindly following orders and covering your own tail. I hear a lot of people who say they want to make a difference for the poor, but for most it's easier to vote for a distant politician and pat themselves on the back instead of getting involved locally to address the unique needs and difficulties in their own neighborhoods. There is no one-size-fits all solution, and stereotypes only serve the interests of those whose golden parachutes ensure that they will never have to depend upon the quagmire of impotence they've created.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Kingfisher

[revtimothybland]

Thank you, Atwater, looking at it from that point of view makes sense, and I do agree that people ON Welfare should be let off of it gradually so that they have a chance to do things right.

unfortunately, I myself do not have a plan for social reform. Admittedly, I've always been a bit more preoccupied with Congress' outrages paychecks that they don't need, money that could go towards FIXING all of our problems, but instead lines their pockets. But I'm open to suggestion.

[kokigami]

just a data point

[revtimothybland]

just a data point

I fail to see how one person's story, which isn't a common one, actually, constitutes a data point. If anything, it's an exception.

I feel for the woman, I really do, but her story is more unique then you think.

[Assassin]

Really in todays economy and the way the hiring process is set up it doesn't matter if your disabled or any other excuse you can think of you can find a job and a place to live it may not be the one you want but it will give you enough money to survive I know because I didn't always have a cushy job I started out making minimum wage and worked hard until I made something of my self I am a disabled vet and most jobs give you extra hiring points or will move you to the front of the hire list because you have a disability. So now someone will say what if you don't have a diploma well who's fault is that not mine not the guy paying taxes working his but off to provide for his family and another persons he does not even know 10000 miles away. Perfect example my wife tells me all the time when a homeless person or someone in need ask for money we should give them what we can. We were walking through a parking lot and a lady approached us and said that she had ran out of fuel and had no money her kids where almost out of school and she had no one to pick them up can we let her have some money. In the field I work I can tell a crack head from a lady needing gas the white lady was for sure a crack head so my wife not knowing gave her 5 dollars and I said she shouldn't of done that and she said that the story sounded legit and that she believed her. 1 month later same parking lot same women same story my wife looking dumb that she fell for the story I was laughing so hard. The point of that story people are lazy and need to get off their behinds and stop taking charity and start earning money. I know that I put that I was trying to get on it and I couldn't that was just a conversation starter I have never been or will never be on welfare because I have to much pride I would rather go hall hay in 110 degree heat and get enough to live on for a few days than ask you and yours to put money in my pocket. I put white lady because although this is a religious site there are still race issues among people on here.

[RabbiO]

Really in todays economy and the way the hiring process is set up it doesn't matter if your disabled or any other excuse you can think of you can find a job and a place to live it may not be the one you want but it will give you enough money to survive I know because....

So now someone will say what if you don't have a diploma well who's fault is that not mine not the guy paying taxes working his but off to provide for his family and another persons he does not even know 10000 miles away. Perfect example my wife tells me all the time when a homeless person or someone in need ask for money we should give them what we can. We were walking through a parking lot and a lady approached us and said that she had ran out of fuel and had no money her kids where almost out of school and she had no one to pick them up can we let her have some money. In the field I work I can tell a crack head from a lady needing gas the white lady was for sure a crack head so my wife not knowing gave her 5 dollars and I said she shouldn't of done that and she said that the story sounded legit and that she believed her. 1 month later same parking lot same women same story my wife looking dumb that she fell for the story I was laughing so hard. The point of that story people are lazy and need to get off their behinds and stop taking charity and start earning money. I know that I put that I was trying to get on it and I couldn't that was just a conversation starter I have never been or will never be on welfare because I have to much pride I would rather go hall hay in 110 degree heat and get enough to live on for a few days than ask you and yours to put money in my pocket. I put white lady because although this is a religious site there are still race issues among people on here.

Actually you don't know. You cannot take your individual experience, true as it may be, in your part of the country, and extrapolate a universal truth from it.

Your story, it seems to me, is about a crack addict lying to obtain funds, apparently to feed her addiction, nothing more. And I would point out that even crack addicts can have children, even crack addicts can run out of gas and need money to fill the tank. I'd rather give someone $5 and be wrong than not give someone $5 and be wrong to the detriment to someone's well being. But, of course, I am espousing a Jewish viewpoint in regard to my obligations to other people.

What we can agree on is that you do have too much pride.

As for race issues, I don't follow every thread so if you could point where they have occurred I would be most appreciative.

Edited July 9, 2014 by RabbiO

[kokigami]

Really in todays economy and the way the hiring process is set up it doesn't matter if your disabled or any other excuse you can think of you can find a job and a place to live it may not be the one you want but it will give you enough money to survive I know because I didn't always have a cushy job I started out making minimum wage and worked hard until I made something of my self I am a disabled vet and most jobs give you extra hiring points or will move you to the front of the hire list because you have a disability. So now someone will say what if you don't have a diploma well who's fault is that not mine not the guy paying taxes working his but off to provide for his family and another persons he does not even know 10000 miles away. Perfect example my wife tells me all the time when a homeless person or someone in need ask for money we should give them what we can. We were walking through a parking lot and a lady approached us and said that she had ran out of fuel and had no money her kids where almost out of school and she had no one to pick them up can we let her have some money. In the field I work I can tell a crack head from a lady needing gas the white lady was for sure a crack head so my wife not knowing gave her 5 dollars and I said she shouldn't of done that and she said that the story sounded legit and that she believed her. 1 month later same parking lot same women same story my wife looking dumb that she fell for the story I was laughing so hard. The point of that story people are lazy and need to get off their behinds and stop taking charity and start earning money. I know that I put that I was trying to get on it and I couldn't that was just a conversation starter I have never been or will never be on welfare because I have to much pride I would rather go hall hay in 110 degree heat and get enough to live on for a few days than ask you and yours to put money in my pocket. I put white lady because although this is a religious site there are still race issues among people on here.

well, now I just don't believe you anymore. Either you lied before, or you are lying now, and so, where does that leave us, in a forum world composed only of words.. This is a reason anecdotal evidence is not to be trusted.

Actually you don't know. You cannot take your individual experience, true as it may be, in your part of the country, and extrapolate a universal truth from it.

Your story, it seems to me, is about a crack addict lying to obtain funds, apparently to feed her addiction, nothing more. And I would point out that even crack addicts can have children, even crack addicts can run out of gas and need money to fill the tank. I'd rather give someone $5 and be wrong than not give someone $5 and be wrong to the detriment to someone's well being. But, of course, I am espousing a Jewish viewpoint in regard to my obligations to other people.

What we can agree on is that you do have too much pride.

As for race issues, I don't follow every thread so if you could point where they have occurred I would be most appreciative.

agreed. In fact, it seems to me, a crack addict is more likely than a sober person to find themselves out of gas twice in a short period. But, five bucks isn't going to impact my day, so I can afford to take that risk.

I fail to see how one person's story, which isn't a common one, actually, constitutes a data point. If anything, it's an exception.

I feel for the woman, I really do, but her story is more unique then you think.

a data point isn't meant to represent the whole. It is just a data point. A different one than has been expressed by others. But it could serve to illustrate the earlier example of a poor person with an I phone syndrome. I have friends who are on assistance, in part because the initial divorce settlement was made while the father was newly employed, and not making much. So his contribution is very small, but he is now in a high earning two income situation, and can easily afford to give the kids toys, so, while they often don't have food, and they must get snap etc, the kids have some - not a lot, but some - 'spensive bling...

[revtimothybland]

RabbiO, Kokigami, your last posts made perfect sense to me, and I agree.

I believe my usual phrase of "Fair Enough" is called for here.

Assassin, you shouldn't anecdotal evidence and then admit an earlier falsehood. It ruins credibility. I myself have never done so, because I don't want to lose what credibility I have. Kokigami and I actually tend to agree on most things, and when we DO debate like this, we usually end up either agreeing, or simply agreeing to disagree, and we move on, and we've never berated each other, so my cred must be worth SOMETHING, so that's why I avoid falsehoods. I always admit mistakes, though.

[Assassin]

No the evidence is there I went in knowing I wouldn't receive assistance that is why I said I have never tried I might of worded it wrong sorry for the confusion but I have applied knowing that I was not going to receive the assistance and of course was turned down and that is when I started to ask officials of the office questions so if I jumbled my words and came across wrong then sorry. I am not saying that assistance wouldn't help right about now but I still believe in hard work.

[kokigami]

while I don't dis hard work, it does sound like you are, realistically, one unexpected event from qualifying. Or, with a little good luck, from not feeling you might need help. But if your luck runs bad, you may find yourself less critical of the system..