Turnig Witches To Christ

[Dan56]

Well then Dan, I and many like me are more loving and compassionate than your God, for if you blaspheme against me out of ignorance or anger and later recant you need not even bother to ask forgiveness except for your own mental health, because in my mind there was nothing for you to be forgiven for. Your delusions of the truth of who and what I am are your own and do not reflect the actuality or truth of who or what I am in even the slightest. If I am even offended in the slightest then I must not be secure in the knowledge of who and what I am.

It is not possible for a non-believer to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must reside within a believer before they can blaspheme against it. When the Holy Spirit dwells within you, you have no delusions of the Truth. This is why it is unforgivable to blaspheme against it, because you would in affect be consciously rejecting what has been made known to you.

Am I also more secure in my self knowledge than your God. Wow seems to me I'm more loving, forgiving, tolerant and have a higher self esteem than your deity if that is even possible for a human to succeed an Omniscient being.

No, I'm relatively positive that your not more secure in your self-knowledge than God is in his all-knowledge. God doesn't need self-esteem, he is that he is, while we are that we're not. More loving? When you've sacrificed your own life so that others might live, then you might have a fraction of the love that God has shown towards you. More tolerant? What have you had to tolerate besides me?

What we have are the embellished redacted apocalyptic writings from a culture that believed in a lot of myths.

.

What we have is your opinion, and your opinion does not prove prophesies failed or that the bible is a collection of myths.

What we do have factual evidence of is that early Christians would lie, forge and say and do anything to get people to believe that the Son of Man was going to return in their lifetimes. Just one of many failed prophecies contained within the pages of the Bible.

Some Christians are idiots... Jesus said that no man knew the hour of his return, so any Christian who professes to know, is either biblically illiterate or a flat-out liar.

[Fawzo]

It is not possible for a non-believer to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must reside within a believer before they can blaspheme against it. When the Holy Spirit dwells within you, you have no delusions of the Truth. This is why it is unforgivable to blaspheme against it, because you would in affect be consciously rejecting what has been made known to you.

I think your argument is falsified by the thousands of Christian denominatiosn which all claim to have the Holy Spirit and the truth. There would be no delusions of the truth if what you said is tue unless you are claiming you and your denomination are the only one which truly has the Holy Spirit of God within them.

No, I'm relatively positive that your not more secure in your self-knowledge than God is in his all-knowledge. God doesn't need self-esteem, he is that he is, while we are that we're not. More loving? When you've sacrificed your own life so that others might live, then you might have a fraction of the love that God has shown towards you. More tolerant? What have you had to tolerate besides me?

Dan please explain to me how an Omniscient being sacrifices his own life? He always was and always will be, their is no sacrifice of life merely the illusion of such. God could not and did not die on ay cross. Energy can never be created or destroyed, nor could God. It was a play if you will, the PAssion Play.

What we have is your opinion, and your opinion does not prove prophesies failed or that the bible is a collection of myths.

The nile has never dried up and I'll post a list of other failed Bible Prophecies later. I'm getting ready for work righ at the moment.

Some Christians are idiots... Jesus said that no man knew the hour of his return, so any Christian who professes to know, is either biblically illiterate or a flat-out liar.

I'm biting my tongue on this one.

[Pete]

Dan said:-

"1. God is satisfied with his works

Gen 1:31

God is dissatisfied with his works.

Gen 6:6

No contradiction here. God was satisfied when everything was good, then he repented that he made man because of what man had become, wicked and evil. God regretted sin, and sin is not God's work, but mans."

To have regret and to repent one first comes to the conclusion that one was wrong or in error. Are you saying God realized his error (indicating that you agree God is not infallible) or are you saying God did not foresee it (indicating God is not all knowing) or are we saying the was badly chosen (indicating that the bible is not so clear).

Edited May 25, 2010 by Pete

[RabbiO]

You might want to check again my friend. http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

1. God is satisfied with his works

Gen 1:31

God is dissatisfied with his works.

Gen 6:6

2. God dwells in chosen temples

2 Chron 7:12,16

God dwells not in temples

Acts 7:48

3. God dwells in light

Tim 6:16

God dwells in darkness

1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

4. God is seen and heard

Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/

Ex 24:9-11

God is invisible and cannot be heard

John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

5. God is tired and rests

Ex 31:17

God is never tired and never rests

Is 40:28

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things

Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21

God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all

things

Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

7. God knows the hearts of men

Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3

God tries men to find out what is in their heart

Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

8. God is all powerful

Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26

God is not all powerful

Judg 1:19

9. God is unchangeable

James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19

God is changeable

Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/

Ex 33:1,3,17,14

10. God is just and impartial

Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25

God is unjust and partial

Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

11. God is the author of evil

Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25

God is not the author of evil

1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

12. God gives freely to those who ask

James 1:5/ Luke 11:10

God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving

them

John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

13. God is to be found by those who seek him

Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17

God is not to be found by those who seek him

Prov 1:28

14. God is warlike

Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15

God is peaceful

Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious

Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19

God is kind, merciful, and good

James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/

1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long

Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4

God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute

Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,

sacrifices ,and holy days

Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9

God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,

sacrifices, and holy days.

Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

18. God accepts human sacrifices

2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39

God forbids human sacrifice

Deut 12:30,31

19. God tempts men

Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13

God tempts no man

James 1:13

20. God cannot lie

Heb 6:18

God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive

2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him

Gen 6:5,7

Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him

Gen 8:21

22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.

Rom 1:20

God's attributes cannot be discovered

Job 11:7/ Is 40:28

23. There is but one God

Deut 6:4

There is a plurality of gods

Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded

Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36

Robbery forbidden

Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

25. Lying approved and sanctioned

Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22

Lying forbidden

Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned

2 Kings 14:7,3

Hatred to the Edomite forbidden

Deut 23:7

27. Killing commanded

Ex 32:27

Killing forbidden

Ex 20:13

28. The blood-shedder must die

Gen 9:5,6

The blood-shedder must not die

Gen 4:15

29. The making of images forbidden

Ex 20:4

The making of images commanded

Ex 25:18,20

30. Slavery and oppression ordained

Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8

Slavery and oppression forbidden

Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

31. Improvidence enjoyed

Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3

Improvidence condemned

1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22

32. Anger approved

Eph 4:26

Anger disapproved

Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20

33. Good works to be seen of men

Matt 5:16

Good works not to be seen of men

Matt 6:1

34. Judging of others forbidden

Matt 7:1,2

Judging of others approved

1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

35. Christ taught non-resistance

Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52

Christ taught and practiced physical resistance

Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed

Luke 12:4

Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed

John 7:1

37. Public prayer sanctioned

1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3

Public prayer disapproved

Matt 6:5,6

38. Importunity in prayer commended

Luke 18:5,7

Importunity in prayer condemned

Matt 6:7,8

39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned

Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5

The wearing of long hair by men condemned

1 Cor 11:14

40. Circumcision instituted

Gen 17:10

Circumcision condemned

Gal 5:2

41. The Sabbath instituted

Ex 20:8

The Sabbath repudiated

Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day

Ex 20:11

The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites

out of Egypt

Deut 5:15

43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death

Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36

Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in

the same

John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

44. Baptism commanded

Matt 28:19

Baptism not commanded

1 Cor 1:17,14

45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.

Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14

Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.

Deut 14:7,8

46. Taking of oaths sanctioned

Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13

Taking of oaths forbidden

Matt 5:34

47. Marriage approved

Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4

Marriage disapproved

1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8

48. Freedom of divorce permitted

Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14

Divorce restricted

Matt 5:32

49. Adultery forbidden

Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4

Adultery allowed

Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced

Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17

Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union

Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

51. A man may marry his brother's widow

Deut 25:5

A man may not marry his brother's widow

Lev 20:21

52. Hatred to kindred enjoined

Luke 14:26

Hatred to kindred condemned

Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29

53. Intoxicating beverages recommended

Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15

Intoxicating beverages discountenanced

Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32

54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers

and punish evil doers only

Rom 13:1-3,6

It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the

good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor

Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/

Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35

55. Women's rights denied

Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6

Women's rights affirmed

Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9

56. Obedience to masters enjoined

Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18

Obedience due to God only

Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10

57. There is an unpardonable sin

Mark 3:29

There is not unpardonable sin

Acts 13:39

Fawzo,

Obviously any disconnect between Jewish scripture and Christian is not my concern and I also know that you did not come up with the list above. That said, I have to wonder whether the compiler of the list, or you, actually read the material in context. There are a couple of valid points made in the list - the pointing out of the two reasons stated for observing Shabbat. Much of what is presented, however, is just plain wrong. For example, #51, the passage in Leviticus has nothing to do with a widow and therefore does not stand in oppostion to the verse in Deuteronomy. In #41, the verse from Isaiah has nothing to do with a repudiation of Shabbat. In #24, the passages in Exodus have nothing to do with condoing/commanding robbery.

I'm not going to run down the complete list, but I bet you can articulate your concerns in a way that is more accurate than the list you appropriated.

Edited May 25, 2010 by RabbiO

[Pete]

Fawzo,

Obviously any disconnect between Jewish scripture and Christian is not my concern and I also know that you did not come up with the list above. That said, I have to wonder whether the compiler of the list, or you, actually read the material in context. There are a couple of valid points made in the list - the pointing out of the two reasons stated for observing Shabbat. Much of what is presented, however, is just plain wrong. For example, #51, the passage in Leviticus has nothing to do with a widow and therefore does not stand in oppostion to the verse in Deuteronomy. In #41, the verse from Isaiah has nothing to do with a repudiation of Shabbat. In #24, the passages in Exodus have nothing to do with condoing/commanding robbery.

I'm not going to run down the complete list, but I bet you can articulate your concerns in a way that is more accurate than the list you appropriated.

Yes, it all does get confusing sometimes:-

Genesis 38

Judah and Tamar

1At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah. 2There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and lay with her; 3she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. 4She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan. 5She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him.

6Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death.

8Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” 9But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so he put him to death also.

11Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, “Live as a widow in your father’s house until my son Shelah grows up.” For he thought, “He may die too, just like his brothers.” So Tamar went to live in her father’s house.

12After a long time Judah’s wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him.

13When Tamar was told, “Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep,” 14she took off her widow’s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife.

15When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, “Come now, let me sleep with you.”

“And what will you give me to sleep with you?” she asked.

17“I’ll send you a young goat from my flock,” he said.

“Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?” she asked.

18He said, “What pledge should I give you?”

“Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand,” she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow’s clothes again.

20Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21He asked the men who lived there, “Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?”

“There hasn’t been any shrine prostitute here,” they said.

22So he went back to Judah and said, “I didn’t find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, ‘There hasn’t been any shrine prostitute here.’”

23Then Judah said, “Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn’t find her.”

24About three months later Judah was told, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.”

Judah said, “Bring her out and have her burned to death!”

25As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. “I am pregnant by the man who owns these,” she said. And she added, “See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.”

26Judah recognized them and said, “She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn’t give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not sleep with her again.

27When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. 28As she was giving birth, one of them put out his hand; so the midwife took a scarlet thread and tied it on his wrist and said, “This one came out first.” 29But when he drew back his hand, his brother came out, and she said, “So this is how you have broken out!” And he was named Perez.^a 30Then his brother, who had the scarlet thread on his wrist, came out and he was given the name Zerah.^b

http://www.bible-people.info/Tamar.htm

http://www.womeninthebible.net/1.5.Tamar.htm

[Fawzo]

Fawzo,

Obviously any disconnect between Jewish scripture and Christian is not my concern and I also know that you did not come up with the list above. That said, I have to wonder whether the compiler of the list, or you, actually read the material in context. There are a couple of valid points made in the list - the pointing out of the two reasons stated for observing Shabbat. Much of what is presented, however, is just plain wrong. For example, #51, the passage in Leviticus has nothing to do with a widow and therefore does not stand in oppostion to the verse in Deuteronomy. In #41, the verse from Isaiah has nothing to do with a repudiation of Shabbat. In #24, the passages in Exodus have nothing to do with condoing/commanding robbery.

I'm not going to run down the complete list, but I bet you can articulate your concerns in a way that is more accurate than the list you appropriated.

I know many of these type of lists contain information that can easily be explained away, but as you've stated they contain some valid points as well.

BTW - Glad to see you're ok a few of us were worried about you lately.

It is rather silly and seedy of me to post such a list without checking the sources, but it seemed an appropriate repsonse in my feeble mind to Dan's claim there were no theological contradictions in the Bible. I was a bit dizzy after the backflip I did when reading his post . Why does he think so many Christian denominations exist if there aren't any theological differences in the Bible.

once again I'm very happy your ok!!!

[Fawzo]

Dan said:-

"1. God is satisfied with his works

Gen 1:31

God is dissatisfied with his works.

Gen 6:6

No contradiction here. God was satisfied when everything was good, then he repented that he made man because of what man had become, wicked and evil. God regretted sin, and sin is not God's work, but mans."

To have regret and to repent one first comes to the conclusion that one was wrong or in error. Are you saying God realized his error (indicating that you agree God is not infallible) or are you saying God did not foresee it (indicating God is not all knowing) or are we saying the was badly chosen (indicating that the bible is not so clear).

I wonder if RabbiO could expound a little on what the word "repent" means in some of these other instances where it seems God changes his own heart and mind. These seems rather bizzare and almost schizophrenic for an omniscient deity. Anger itself seems ridculous for someone who knows something is going to happen ahead of time and does nothing to stop it and then they still get angry.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. Gen 6:6-7 (KJV)

And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. Ex 32:14 (KJV)

And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. 1 Sam 15:35 (KJV)

And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite 2 Sam 24:16 (KJV)

And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small. 3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD. 4 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord GOD called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part. 5 Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small. 6 The LORD repented for this Amos 7:2-6 (KJV)

[Fawzo]

Here are some of the failed prophecies. The first one is where Isaiah clearly prophesizes the Nile will dry up during his time period. Three thousand years later and we are still waiting.

The waters of the river will dry up,

and the riverbed will be parched and dry.

6 The canals will stink;

the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up.

The reeds and rushes will wither,

7 also the plants along the Nile,

at the mouth of the river.

Every sown field along the Nile

will become parched, will blow away and be no more.

8 The fishermen will groan and lament,

all who cast hooks into the Nile;

those who throw nets on the water

will pine away.

9 Those who work with combed flax will despair,

the weavers of fine linen will lose hope.

10 The workers in cloth will be dejected,

and all the wage earners will be sick at heart. Isaiah 19:5-10 (NIV)

This next one Ezekial predicts Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar which never happened. The funny thing about this failed prophecy is that later in the book Ezekial even admits to the failure of the prophecy!!!

For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army. 8 "He will slay your daughters on the mainland with the sword; and he will make siege walls against you, cast up a ramp against you and raise up a large shield against you. 9 "The blow of his battering rams he will direct against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 "Because of the multitude of his horses, the dust raised by them will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of cavalry and wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city that is breached. 11 "With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will slay your people with the sword; and your strong pillars will come down to the ground. 12 "Also they will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise, break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses, and throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water. 13 "So I will silence the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more. 14 "I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the LORD have spoken," declares the Lord GOD. Ezek 26:7-14 (NASB95)

Here is the proof the prophecy failed, with another failed Prophecy contained therein where Nebuchadnezzar is suppose to conquer Egypt which never happened:

Now in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying, 18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it." 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army. 20 "I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor which he performed , because they acted for Me," declares the Lord GOD. Ezek 29:17-20 (NASB95)

Ezekial undaunted by failed prophecies tries again and claims Egypt will become unihabited for 40 years and its inhabitants scattered to other countries, which never happened.

'Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off from you man and beast. 9 "The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste. Then they will know that I am the LORD.

Because you said, 'The Nile is mine, and I have made it,' 10 therefore, behold, I am against you and against your rivers , and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene and even to the border of Ethiopia . 11 "A man's foot will not pass through it, and the foot of a beast will not pass through it, and it will not be inhabited for forty years. 12 "So I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated lands. And her cities, in the midst of cities that are laid waste, will be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands."

13 'For thus says the Lord GOD, "At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered. 14 "I will turn the fortunes of Egypt and make them return to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin, and there they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 "It will be the lowest of the kingdoms, and it will never again lift itself up above the nations. And I will make them so small that they will not rule over the nations. 16 "And it will never again be the confidence of the house of Israel, bringing to mind the iniquity of their having turned to Egypt. Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD.""' Ezek 29:8-16 (NASB95)

Jeremiah predicts Jehokiam the king of Judah shall have no succesor, 2 Kings 24:6 states otherwise and say he was succeeded by his son Jehoiachin.

Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost. 31 And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not Jer 36:30-31 (KJV)

[Pete]

my post omitted a word and that word was word.

Dan said:-

"1. God is satisfied with his works

Gen 1:31

God is dissatisfied with his works.

Gen 6:6

No contradiction here. God was satisfied when everything was good, then he repented that he made man because of what man had become, wicked and evil. God regretted sin, and sin is not God's work, but mans."

To have regret and to repent one first comes to the conclusion that one was wrong or in error. Are you saying God realized his error (indicating that you agree God is not infallible) or are you saying God did not foresee it (indicating God is not all knowing) or are we saying the word was badly chosen (indicating that the bible is not so clear).

[Pete]

my post omitted a word and that word was word.

Dan said:-

"1. God is satisfied with his works

Gen 1:31

God is dissatisfied with his works.

Gen 6:6

No contradiction here. God was satisfied when everything was good, then he repented that he made man because of what man had become, wicked and evil. God regretted sin, and sin is not God's work, but mans."

To have regret and to repent one first comes to the conclusion that one was wrong or in error. Are you saying God realized his error (indicating that you agree God is not infallible) or are you saying God did not foresee it (indicating God is not all knowing) or are we saying the word was badly chosen (indicating that the bible is not so clear).

see:- http://www.islamway....tradictions.htm

( I know an equally long list of contradictions can be drawn up from the Koran but on the bible I think they have a point.) See:- http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

It all comes back to the old saying (IMO) "Beware the man with only one book"..

Edited May 26, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

It all comes back to the old saying (IMO) "Beware the man with only one book"..

lol thats a good one. I've never heard that saying before and it certainly rings true to these ears.

So I think we can agree that if there is an intelligent designer to this wonderful world of ours, he/she/it certainly hasn't gone out of its way to make his will for us as perfectly clear as possible.

Some reasons I come up with for that is:

1) an intelligent designer doesn't exist

2) He doesn't care

3) we're extremly retarded

4) he gave us free will and expects us to learn to use it wisely on our own....the old throw you in the pool to teach you how to swim deal

5) his message and will are being subverted by an equally powerful being.

Any additional thoughts or comments on some of the possible reasons givien above. Is there one you lean towards more than others. I lean towards #4 myself.

[Pete]

lol thats a good one. I've never heard that saying before and it certainly rings true to these ears.

So I think we can agree that if there is an intelligent designer to this wonderful world of ours, he/she/it certainly hasn't gone out of its way to make his will for us as perfectly clear as possible.

Some reasons I come up with for that is:

1) an intelligent designer doesn't exist

2) He doesn't care

3) we're extremly retarded

4) he gave us free will and expects us to learn to use it wisely on our own....the old throw you in the pool to teach you how to swim deal

5) his message and will are being subverted by an equally powerful being.

Any additional thoughts or comments on some of the possible reasons givien above. Is there one you lean towards more than others. I lean towards #4 myself.

I guess I lean more to four, however, I also tend to believe God to be more of the spiritual rather than the events of the physical.

I have also discovered I missed quoted the saying It should have been

"Beware the man of one book." St. Thomas Aquinas..

However, the meaning is the same..

[Dan56]

This next one Ezekial predicts Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar which never happened. The funny thing about this failed prophecy is that later in the book Ezekial even admits to the failure of the prophecy!!!

Nebuchadnezzar did destroy the mainland city of Tyre just as prophesied. The prophecy stated in Ezekiel 26:3, that God would cause MANY nations to come against Tyre. Then it singled out Nebuchadnezzar in verse 7, as one of those nations, indicating the specific role he would play. In verse twelve, it returns to talking about "they" (the nations).

Nebuchadnezzar’s role was never meant to include the destruction of the island fortress. It says that by reason of the abundance of his horses, dust would cover Tyre, but since the island city was more than a half mile from shore, this was obviously not referring to it, but rather that his army would trod down the streets of the mainland city. .

Ezekiel 29 does not say the prophecy failed, it just says that Nebuchadnezzar and his army got no wages from Tyre. Your reading what you want to hear instead of carefully reading what it actually says.

There's more to this prophecy, as Ezekiel 28 indicates, the prince of Tyre is a type of Satan himself.

To have regret and to repent one first comes to the conclusion that one was wrong or in error. Are you saying God realized his error (indicating that you agree God is not infallible) or are you saying God did not foresee it (indicating God is not all knowing) or are we saying the word was badly chosen (indicating that the bible is not so clear).

The reason it repented God that he had made man on the earth was stated in the previous verse, he saw the wickedness and only continuous evil. Did God create the evil and wickedness? No, so how could God have been wrong or in error? God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9), and He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Therefore, God regretted the continuous evil works of mankind.

God doesn't see the past, the present, or the future, but with the absence of time, He sees everything as it is happening. The paradox of omniscience and free will are not nonsensical because of God's omnipotence. History is not history until God makes it so (Lamentations 3:37). God, being all-knowing, knows that we are all dead to sin, but because God is all-powerful, we are all not dead to sin. The power of prayer is not void, because His Will is done, not ours. Is God's omniscience applicable to himself, or is His omniscience about us in accordance to his omnipotence in dealing with each of us? I believe that as long as God intervenes, our fate is not necessarily predetermined. We read about God's emotions, he gets angry, he relents, he regrets, he is grieved, etc. If God changes his mind due to His patience, mercy, or grace, then what would have been, will be no more (Exodus 32:14).

[Tsukino_Rei]

Then, something amazing happened: I was introduced to Jesus; he was my Honduran social worker.

- Neil Patrick Harris, in Glee

[Pete]

The reason it repented God that he had made man on the earth was stated in the previous verse, he saw the wickedness and only continuous evil. Did God create the evil and wickedness? No, so how could God have been wrong or in error? God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9), and He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Therefore, God regretted the continuous evil works of mankind.

God doesn't see the past, the present, or the future, but with the absence of time, He sees everything as it is happening. The paradox of omniscience and free will are not nonsensical because of God's omnipotence. History is not history until God makes it so (Lamentations 3:37). God, being all-knowing, knows that we are all dead to sin, but because God is all-powerful, we are all not dead to sin. The power of prayer is not void, because His Will is done, not ours. Is God's omniscience applicable to himself, or is His omniscience about us in accordance to his omnipotence in dealing with each of us? I believe that as long as God intervenes, our fate is not necessarily predetermined. We read about God's emotions, he gets angry, he relents, he regrets, he is grieved, etc. If God changes his mind due to His patience, mercy, or grace, then what would have been, will be no more (Exodus 32:14).

For the first part I do not believe you answered me.

For the second part I quote:-

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version - UK)

²⁶ Jesus looked at them and said, With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

If all is possible then God can see the future. If God knows the future then the concept of free will does not exist as all is mapped out and seeable. If God does not see the future then not all things are possible with God.

Secondly if God is the same to day as yesterday then God would not need to change his mind. God is said not to change Malachi 3:6.

[Fawzo]

Nebuchadnezzar did destroy the mainland city of Tyre just as prophesied. The prophecy stated in Ezekiel 26:3, that God would cause MANY nations to come against Tyre. Then it singled out Nebuchadnezzar in verse 7, as one of those nations, indicating the specific role he would play. In verse twelve, it returns to talking about "they" (the nations).

Nebuchadnezzar's role was never meant to include the destruction of the island fortress. It says that by reason of the abundance of his horses, dust would cover Tyre, but since the island city was more than a half mile from shore, this was obviously not referring to it, but rather that his army would trod down the streets of the mainland city. .

Ezekiel 29 does not say the prophecy failed, it just says that Nebuchadnezzar and his army got no wages from Tyre. Your reading what you want to hear instead of carefully reading what it actually says.

There's more to this prophecy, as Ezekiel 28 indicates, the prince of Tyre is a type of Satan himself.

Here is a very good reply to your counter argument which I knew was coming.

http://errancy.org/tyre.html

The strongest reply

There are weak replies, like claiming it's all metaphor, which I won't bore you with. What follows is my discussion of the strongest reply.

The Tektonics website notes that, at one point, the prophecy refers to the invaders as "they", and argues that "they" are someone else: the "many nations" mentioned at verse 3. This is a very unnatural reading - I expect everyone reading Ezekiel 26 for the first time thinks that "they" refers to Nebuchadnezzar's troops, rather than anyone else.

In any case, most of the prophecy refers to "he", which can only mean Nebuchadnezzar. Verses 10-11 tell us that "he" will enter through the city gates, trampling through all of the streets, and killing the people. But "he" never did. So the problem still stands, even if we ignore the "they" sentences.

Tyre was an island city, with associated suburbs on the mainland. Tektonics claims that these verses refer only to such suburbs, but I don't see why they should. The island was Tyre proper - as shown by verses 4-5 predicting that Tyre would become "a bare rock ... in the midst of the sea". These verses surely indicate that Ezekiel understood "Tyre" to mean the island. So when he predicts that Nebuchadnezzar would rampage through all of Tyre's streets, he must mean on the island.

Further support for my position comes from verse 8: "He will kill with the sword your daughters on the mainland." These "daughters" are the mainland suburbs, and so it's clear that Ezekiel distinguishes between them and Tyre proper. In the following verses, he predicts that Nebuchadnezzar will bring devastation not only to "your daughters" but also to "you" - which must therefore mean Tyre itself.

Never rebuilt?

Despite Ezekiel saying it would never be rebuilt, Tyre exists to this day (the island and mainland having been connected now), and its inhabitants are even mentioned, in the present tense, several times in the New Testament (e.g. at Acts 12:20).

[Dan56]

The Tektonics website notes that, at one point, the prophecy refers to the invaders as "they", and argues that "they" are someone else: the "many nations" mentioned in verse 3. This is a very unnatural reading -

So, the folks at Tektonics seem to have a problem with what the bible says? The prophecy didn't materialize because the "Many Nations" is an unnatural reading ? The bottom line is that the prophecy said that Many nations would come against Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3), and that's exactly what happened. The city of Tyre consisted of a mainland metropolis and a small Island that stood about half a mile offshore, both were utterly destroyed just as was foretold in the prophecy.

The Destruction of Tyre

Bible prophecies fulfilled by Phoenicia's city of Tyre

EZEKIEL CHAPTER 26 - TYRE - FULFILLED PROPHECY

[Dan56]

For the first part I do not believe you answered me.

I thought I did... Just because God knows and foresees all things, does not mean he can't regret certain things. God saw the wickedness and continuous evil committed by his children and it "grieved him at his heart". When we repent, we remove the wrong from our life... When God repented, he removed the wrong from the face of the earth. God gave man free-will, and regrettably, man chose poorly.

For the second part I quote:-

Matthew 19:26 (New International Version - UK)

²⁶ Jesus looked at them and said, With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

If all is possible then God can see the future. If God knows the future then the concept of free will does not exist as all is mapped out and seeable. If God does not see the future then not all things are possible with God.

Secondly if God is the same to day as yesterday then God would not need to change his mind. God is said not to change Malachi 3:6.

God can see the future, prophecy proves this. And as you quoted, Jesus said that all things are possible with God. But just because God knows the future, why would this mean that free-will can't co-exist? Your choices are your choices, the fact that God has foreknowledge of what you'll choose, does not infringe upon your freedom of choice. God's omniscience does not affect another's free will. Your choices are not predetermined, and they aren't the result of a pre-written scrip. God doesn't twist your arm or program your mind in order to make you comply with a future that He has mapped-out. God does intervene from time to time, but generally, seeing the future does not eliminate or alter our freedom of choice.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Dan54

[Pete]

I thought I did... Just because God knows and foresees all things, does not mean he can't regret certain things. God saw the wickedness and continuous evil committed by his children and it "grieved him at his heart". When we repent, we remove the wrong from our life... When God repented, he removed the wrong from the face of the earth. God gave man free-will, and regrettably, man chose poorly.

God can see the future, prophecy proves this. And as you quoted, Jesus said that all things are possible with God. But just because God knows the future, why would this mean that free-will can't co-exist? Your choices are your choices, the fact that God has foreknowledge of what you'll choose, does not infringe upon your freedom of choice. God's omniscience does not affect another's free will. Your choices are not predetermined, and they aren't the result of a pre-written scrip. God doesn't twist your arm or program your mind in order to make you comply with a future that He has mapped-out. God does intervene from time to time, but generally, seeing the future does not eliminate or alter our freedom of choice.

If I make something that I know will do something then I cannot say it has free choice. If I know that something will fail me then I cannot in fairness judge it because the fault would be mine.

The bit you did not answer was on the subject of God repenting. One cannot repent unless one acknowledges they were wrong and have a desire to be different. God is said not to change and is also said not to be wrong. So if God repents what occurs. Giving me a talking about my sin and errors and how that let down God does not answer the point I made.

[panpareil]

So is free will the ability to do what God can not know?