Liberal Christianity 2

[Kingfisher]

My brother and I used to cut it up pretty good at Sunday School. We liked to keep people on their toes, and weren't afraid to voice our opinions. It was so gloomy and serious all the time, we didn't see why it couldn't also be fun. One day, another kid had a seizure at the back of the classroom. Our teacher told us this was God punishing us for misbehaving. After all, that's what the Bible says.

1 Samuel 15:23 "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

And..

Isaiah 13:11 "And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible."

We weren't really offended. She meant well, saving our souls and all, but we left the school after that. We must have needed that instruction, we grew up to be those guys playing Dungeons and Dragons and passing around bootleg tapes of George Carlin. The thing is, while she was trying to teach us this really important lesson to save our souls, and she was so certain of her vision of a terrible and vengeful God, she missed the message any child can tell you.

Psalm 118:24 "This is the day the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it."

Sometimes the old magic is best.

[Fawzo]

"You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which he hates they have done to their god; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods" (Deuteronomy 12:31). Anyone who would have done these things in Israel would face the death penalty. Human sacrifice were an abomination before God.

In keeping with the thrust of the context;

"Then she said to her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone for two months, that I may go and wander on the mountains and bewail my virginity, my friends and I" (Judges 11:37) She was sad over the fact that she would never marry, not that she was going to die.

"She returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man" (Judges 11:39). What was the result of her father doing his vow? "she knew no man".

She was a lesbian it would be only natural that she knew no man. Quite natural really, happens all the time.

"Lament" usually means to mourn or wail, but "lament" as used in verse 40 is; The idea of attributing honor, to ascribe praise, ie; celebrate, commemorate (Strong's Concordance #8567). People don't usually celebrate death, they mourn death and express grief or sorrow.

There are cultures which celebrate death and see it for the miracle that it is. I am one such person.

I think RabbiO could enlighten us on this further though the word and story seem quite straightforward when read without modifications to fit and rationalize a belief system.

BTW - How many other temple Virgins must there had been through the ages? The women in Israel must have went crazy celebrating them all !

Edited April 30, 2010 by Fawzo

[Pete]

"You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which he hates they have done to their god; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods" (Deuteronomy 12:31). Anyone who would have done these things in Israel would face the death penalty. Human sacrifice were an abomination before God.

In keeping with the thrust of the context;

"Then she said to her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone for two months, that I may go and wander on the mountains and bewail my virginity, my friends and I" (Judges 11:37) She was sad over the fact that she would never marry, not that she was going to die.

"She returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man" (Judges 11:39). What was the result of her father doing his vow? "she knew no man".

"Lament" usually means to mourn or wail, but "lament" as used in verse 40 is; The idea of attributing honor, to ascribe praise, ie; celebrate, commemorate (Strong's Concordance #8567). People don't usually celebrate death, they mourn death and express grief or sorrow.

³¹Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

³²So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

³³And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

³⁴And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

³⁵And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

³⁶And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

³⁷And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

³⁸And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

³⁹And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

⁴⁰That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

Sorry Dan but I think your clutching at words in order to avoid the whole text.

Why Lament someone who lives. Why Israel lamenting four times a year and not his own daughter. I do not think you have made your case Dan but even if you did, I would ask why has the father the right to decide on his daughter's virginity and life. I still find it sickening...

[Fawzo]

Something from further Jewish texts.

There is no punishment of Jephthah in the biblical text, but the midrash suggests he was punished. Phineas, the local priest, could have saved the daughter by annulling the vow, as in talmudic times a High Priest could annul a vow. But instead, he said, 'I am a High Priest, the son of a High Priest, shall I go an ignoramus?' He was insulting Jephthah who in turn responded by saying 'I am the chief of Israel, shall I go to Phineas' (Gen. Rabbah 60:3) Thus the daughter lost her life. Both Phineas and Jephthah were condemned and punished.

According to the biblical text, when Jephthah dies 'he was buried in the cities [plural] of Gilead' (12:7) According to the Midrash, that is because his parts disintegrated and were in the cities where they fell (Gen. Rabba 60:3, Lev. Rabba 37:4). The former midrash tells us Phineas lost his Divine inspiration as a result of not acting to save Jephthah's daughter

. Edited April 30, 2010 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

³¹Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

Sorry Dan but I think your clutching at words in order to avoid the whole text.

Well, it just goes against the character of God.. To presume that God would all-of-the-sudden accept what he had previously called an abomination, would be hypocritical. I wish the story had more detail, but we each read and interpret it as we will.

Paul mentions Jephthah in Hebrews 11:32 along with other faithful people like David, Sampson, Gideon, and Samuel. So Jephthah was not admonished for his vow, but it appears to have been a righteous vow. The 31st verse you quoted says 'whatsoever' not 'whomsoever', so I suspect Jephthah presumed it would be an animal. Its also important to note that Jephthah had no other children: “She was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter” (11:34). For his daughter to be consigned to perpetual celibacy meant the extinction of Jephthah’s family line, so in that sense, it was quite a sacrifice.

[Pete]

Well, it just goes against the character of God.. To presume that God would all-of-the-sudden accept what he had previously called an abomination, would be hypocritical. I wish the story had more detail, but we each read and interpret it as we will.

Paul mentions Jephthah in Hebrews 11:32 along with other faithful people like David, Sampson, Gideon, and Samuel. So Jephthah was not admonished for his vow, but it appears to have been a righteous vow. The 31st verse you quoted says 'whatsoever' not 'whomsoever', so I suspect Jephthah presumed it would be an animal. Its also important to note that Jephthah had no other children: "She was his only child. Besides her he had neither son nor daughter" (11:34). For his daughter to be consigned to perpetual celibacy meant the extinction of Jephthah's family line, so in that sense, it was quite a sacrifice.

Which she was paying for.

[Coolhand]

Just out of curiosity: What is the score on this topic? Is any progress being made?

[Dan56]

Just out of curiosity: What is the score on this topic? Is any progress being made?

I would say, with an aura of arrogance and delusions of supremacy, that the score strongly favors Dan54. Was any progress made? No, liberal Christianity still rejects the divinity of Christ.

[Tsukino_Rei]

No, liberal Christianity still rejects the divinity of Christ.

... *deletes what she was going to say and walks away.*

Edited June 21, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei

[Pete]

I would say, with an aura of arrogance and delusions of supremacy, that the score strongly favors Dan54. Was any progress made? No, liberal Christianity still rejects the divinity of Christ.

Oh! Dan that is rich. Since when have you been a spokes person for Liberal Christianity or managed to get any of us to change to your way of thinking.?

[Fawzo]

Oh! Dan that is rich. Since when have you been a spokes person for Liberal Christianity or managed to get any of us to change to your way of thinking.?

He did say with an aura of arrogance and delusion. So it seems some progress has been made and a few more sessions and he might even be aware of the Divinity of all

[Pete]

He did say with an aura of arrogance and delusion. So it seems some progress has been made and a few more sessions and he might even be aware of the Divinity of all

I would like to challenge his view though that Liberals all see Jesus as not divine. Liberals mostly see God as divine love, and that Love was in Jesus and can be found in all. As some put it "There is that of God in all".

As Spong puts it:-

"We cannot, however, escape the power of the fact that Jesus means love-divine, penetrating, opening, life-giving, ecstatic love. Such love is the very essence of what we mean by God. God is love. Jesus is love. God was in Christ. This was the experience that sought to find verbal forms in such creedal concepts as the holy trinity, the incarnation, the virgin birth. It is not the creedal words that are sacred but the reality of the experience that lies behind the words, that is where holiness is met. The God who is love cannot be approached in worship except through the experience of living out that unconditional quality of love. That is why the church must be broken open and freed of its noninclusive prejudices. That is why slavery segregation, sexism, bigotry, and homophobia tear at the very soul of the church."

See:- http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/spong3.html

It has to be also noted that some Liberals do see Jesus as divine and some do not. Some also see his teachings as divine but not the man.

In Short - Some Liberals do see Jesus as divine and some do not.

See:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity

Liberal Christianity allows an openness rather than being bound by a creed, but it has also to be said that in certain groups like the Unitarians Jesus is not seen as divine :- See:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

[Fawzo]

How can anything God creates not be Divine?

Doesn't the fruit represent the tree?

[Pete]

How can anything God creates not be Divine?

Doesn't the fruit represent the tree?

I believe there is that of the divine in everyone, but on the topic of what a Liberal Christians believes I have to acknowledge that some differ from each other.

[Dan56]

Oh! Dan that is rich. Since when have you been a spokes person for Liberal Christianity or managed to get any of us to change to your way of thinking.?

I know that there is no single spokesman for liberal Christians. Progressive Christianity can't be specifically defined because its not based on any fundamental truth, but is instead rooted in individual perspective and philosophy. My comment was tongue & cheek, I didn't claim to change anyone's way of thinking, and stating that the score favored myself was just a bit of sarcastic humor.

How can anything God creates not be Divine?

Doesn't the fruit represent the tree?

Yes, but what tree? The fruit reflective of the Tree of Life (Christ)? Or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Satan)?

[Fawzo]

Yes, but what tree? The fruit reflective of the Tree of Life (Christ)? Or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Satan)?

Satan is one of the fruits of the tree!

Didn't Satan have free will to choose? Choose from what though? You stated that evil had to exist for free will to exist., if that is the case then once again evil had to exist for Satan to have free will to choose.

There had to be some type of database of information for what evil is, before there could be a tree of such knowledge? Where did that collection of evil data originate. All branches of the tree lead back to ONE SOURCE and it isn't Satan.

[Coolhand]

There had to be some type of database of information for what evil is, before there could be a tree of such knowledge? Where did that collection of evil data originate. All branches of the tree lead back to ONE SOURCE and it isn't Satan.

What is the ONE SOURCE?

[Tsukino_Rei]

What is the ONE SOURCE?

It's only 'the most accurate source of CRITICAL company and executive information!

http://www.onesource.com/

*cheesy grin*

Seriously though, I think the idea is that what we understand of the spiritual is understood through symbols. Even the building blocks of language are symbols which represent objects and ideas. Without them there is no cognition.

As such, one can only point you towards symbols of the One Source to aid in your cognition. One such symbol, and a common thread through multiple religions, is The World Tree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_tree

The world tree is a motif present in several religions and mythologies, particularly Indo-European religions. The world tree is represented as a colossal tree which supports the heavens, thereby connecting the heavens, the earth, and, through its roots, the underground. It may also be strongly connected to the motif of the tree of life.

Specific world trees include the one in Hungarian mythology, Yggdrasil (or Irminsul) in Norse mythology, the Oak in Slavic and Finnish mythology, and in Hinduism the Ashvastha (a Sacred Fig).

Although the concept is absent from the Greek mythology, medieval Greek folk traditions and more recent ones claim that the Tree that holds the Earth is being sawed by Kallikantzaroi (commonly translated as goblins).

Parts of Hungarian folklore also bear resemblance to the world tree, such as the Égig érő fa (Sky-reaching tree) and several folktales connected to it.

The world tree is widespread in Lithuanian folk painting, and is frequently found carved into household furniture such as cupboards, towel holders, and laundry beaters.[6][7]

The "Cosmic tree" also was one of the most important beliefs in Latvian mythology.

Remnants of the world tree concept are also evident within the history and folklore of Ireland's Gaelic past. There are many accounts within early Irish manuscripts of great tribal trees known as Bilé being cut down by enemy tribes during times of war. This world tree concept, being strongly Indo-European, was likely to have been a feature of early Celtic culture[8].

Edited June 24, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei

[Pete]

What is the ONE SOURCE?

I think the argument goes - If God created all things and the devil was the first to choose evil then God must of created evil for the devil to make that choice. If evil did not exist then there was no choice to make.

I may choose to flap my arms as if a bird but but no matter I will not fly because that choice is not there. The laws of physics have to allow for the possibility for it to be a possibility.

Yet, even then that will not make one fly, as one has to have the desire to fly.

In the same way, it can be argued that for Satan to choose evil then God would of had to create evil and a being with that desire and knowing in advance that it would fail him. Hence, if scripture is taken literally it appears to rest the full blame on God.

[Fawzo]

I think the argument goes - If God created all things and the devil was the first to choose evil then God must of created evil for the devil to make that choice. If evil did not exist then there was no choice to make.

I may choose to flap my arms as if a bird but but no matter I will not fly because that choice is not there. The laws of physics have to allow for the possibility for it to be a possibility.

Yet, even then that will not make one fly, as one has to have the desire to fly.

In the same way, it can be argued that for Satan to choose evil then God would of had to create evil and a being with that desire and knowing in advance that it would fail him. Hence, if scripture is taken literally it appears to rest the full blame on God.

The only way for what Pete just described not to be the case is if that ONE SOURCE was NOT OMNISCIENT or if there were a way for him to switch omiscience on and off in the same manner that some believe we choose to forget our Divinity so that we can come and experience the physicality of the natural world and duality.

In the latter case the ONE SOURCE is still culpable however.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Fawzo