Jonathan H. B. Lobl

You seem to be working with traditions that I'm not familiar with. Is this Wicca? I have training in Reiki, which traces back to Buddhism. I have training in Therapeutic Touch, which traces back to Theosophy.

I think that we are missing the humor here. The conclusion, is that the question of God's existence, is not a science question. It follows that science does not and can not answer that question. That even asking whether or not God exists, is not relevant to science. Science neither negates nor confirms faith. I thought it was funny. Also, valid.

My favorite physic is prune juice. I don't need a meta-physic. Certainly, not more than one, which would be metaphysics.

I want to pause and declare my positions. I have my own biases, and I'm upfront about them. I'm nobody's judge. If someone chooses to believe, then much joy may it bring them. If they want me to believe -- then let them show me something. Something other than Scripture. I am an Apatheist. A God that can not be demonstrated to exist, doesn't matter. Even if that God actually exists, it still doesn't matter. I'm done with arguing about faith. Belief, non-belief and disbelief are all irrelevant. God either is, or is not. Arguments change nothing. I'm also done with arguing about metaphysics. Nothing good comes from these arguments. Plenty of acrimony, but nothing good.

It may not be obvious. I try very hard to be fair. And I actually listen.

Then it's true? All observers were biased?

Contradictions in the Life, Death, Resurrection narrative.

While we are looking at the "historical" aspects, we might as well keep going: Paul never actually met Jesus. At least, not in the flesh. He had visions. The prophet Mohammed also never met Jesus. He had visions. Based on Mohammed's visions, the Koran was created. Much of it dealing with Jesus. The Koran denies that Jesus died on the Cross. Why are we to accept one set of visions as true -- and the other as false? How much of Christianity is there, without Paul's content? What makes the Gospels -- or the rest of the New Testament -- more historic than the Koran? Remember. Islam is growing faster than Christianity. In time, it will be the world's largest religion. In any event, counting believers is a poor way to know the truth. We need objective means to determine such matters. That's right. When it comes to God, there is no such thing as objective, verifiable, facts.

If we are to take to Gospel account at face value, other things happened. There was an earthquake that destroyed the Temple. The three hours of darkness The tombs opened and the dead walked among the living. They were seen by "many". None of this comes to the notice, of the historians of the time. In addition, there are other details of the Gospel accounts, that simply don't ring true. Jesus was followed everywhere, by huge crowds, that pressed in on all sides. The Romans had no idea who Jesus was. They needed Judas to identify Jesus for them. In the end, I suppose it comes down to belief. In this case, faith is a double edged sword. As Paul tells it, faith requires a literal Adam and Eve. In my opinion, another can of theological worms. 1 Corinthians 15 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV) 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Jewish humor. It's about learning to live with contradiction. There is related Buddhist sentiment. "The gods are illusory, but if we call upon them for assistance, they will help us anyway." There is also the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. The answer to Life, the Universe and Everything is -- 42.

I will not quibble. Next time, God can make his covenant with someone else. If it needs repeating, I come from a secular Jewish tradition. "There is no God and we are his people."

Just so. I used to have a circle of Hasidic friends. They would tell me that God is not a Liberal. They would also tell me that the "covenant" was a contract -- with penalties for noncompliance.

No. I was participating in the conversation. I thought these passages were relevant. In any case, Scripture is what it is. Not what I want it to be. It's easy enough to find material that is offensive. Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

God also seeks. Enjoy. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Yes.

I mean this as a real question. Does God need defending? In what way is God vulnerable? It seems to me that both Christians and Muslims fall into this same trap. A God that needs protection isn't that big a deal.

There is a transition. It begins with God not healing amputation. It progress to God lacking powers of persuasion. The unspoken assumption, is that persuading people of God's reality, is the only reason to heal an amputation. God could heal an amputation, but people still wouldn't believe, so it's not worth doing. I despise apologists.

I can only speak for myself. Before I can "believe" anything in the Greek Scriptures -- I would first need to "believe" the Hebrew Scriptures. If I "believed" the Hebrew Scriptures -- I would be Orthodox Jewish, instead of Secular Jewish. This is on the theory, that the religion I'm not practicing, is my own. Instead of someone else's. So no. These scribal details change nothing for me. I am an Atheist. For me, starting with John doesn't make a lot of sense. There are other matters to be established first. Like God's existence. I am also an Apatheist. Because a god that can not be demonstrated to exist, is meaningless. Even if that God actually exists, it still doesn't matter. I have been arguing metaphysics and philosophy for years. I can't do it any more. The fire has gone out.

Just so.

That Marry, wife of Jesus, was replaced with Martha? It seems possible. At that time in history, a Jewish man without a wife could never have a following. The Catholic Church got all hung up on Marry's virginity. I could see them making such a change. Of course, there are the legends. That Jesus and Marry escaped to France. That Marry was the Holy Grail (Vessel). Southern France was the site of the Albigensian Heresy. The Grail became central to the King Arthur story. Is that what you were hinting at?

Prayer at home is equally useful in dealing with a virus? Yes. I suppose it is.

I'm seeing plenty of bald assertions about Jesus and his nature. Assertions are neither evidence nor proof. Assertions are an argument. This is a pointless argument. What I'm not seeing, is a reason to accept these assertions as true. You are free to accept any truth, based on Scripture. I'm not here to tell you what to believe -- or disbelieve. It doesn't work for me.

Why is this encouragement to pray? When one of the best places to catch a virus is in a church?

Alright. Things change. People change.

You asked. You seem to think that I'm afraid of something. Fight or flight? That this fear, is inhibiting my understanding, of this profound masterpiece of Godly information. No. I am amazed that this boring, tedious, drivel, is somehow supposed to change my life. That after I finish John -- My opinion will then be wanted. I'm less than halfway through. It keeps putting me to sleep. It's chloroform in print. What do you think that I'm afraid of?