Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Unless of course, it's symbolism. More than one man has found God in a burning bush. Alright. A more serious response. The apologists have taken pains to explain why God is no longer present, as in the bad old days. We have better communications than we used to. The word does not travel by word of mouth any more. People are better educated and more skeptical than they used to be. Fantasy is more obvious.

Such is the intrusion, by institutional religion, onto public space. After all -- "THEY" need it. The churches always know what everybody else needs. Whether they want it or not.

Parts of the Bible are indeed, very old. They do reflect the savage nature of their human authors. If they had been "inspired" by an eternal, all knowing and all good god -- instead of the primitives who did write them -- the results would have been different. Slavery would have been condemned. Women would not have been oppressed. Homosexuality would not have all the tirades and death penalties. In short, it would like the eternal and timeless God wrote the Book. For instance -- The Creation account in Genesis would not have God creating plant life before the Sun. Instead, we get an account by the people of the time, who had no concept of where the Sun goes at night or what the Sun is. We would not be told that the stars are little shiny things to decorate the night sky. It would look like God's authorship. Not the ignorant and primitive savages who did author it. The Bible would also have God's timeless morality. Guess what. If you think slavery is wrong -- your morals are already better than God's. If you think that genocide is wrong, much less drowning the whole planet -- your morals are already better than God's. Oops. Did I say that out loud?

No. Very little in life is absolute. Before we impose restrictions on religious rights, we must be very careful. We can drive religious groups underground, where it is difficult to know what they are doing. Then what?

Undercover agents? At a Reiki healing circle? That would be amusing.

I used to attend a Reiki healing circle. It averaged 10 to 20 people. We met in a private house. Nobody noticed or cared.

I expect you are talking about the Islamists? We need to learn the lessons of history. In 1492, the Jews of Spain got an ultimatum from the Spanish Monarchs. They could convert to being Catholic or they could leave Spain. So many Jews had sham conversions that the Catholic Church became suspicious of it's new members. That is how the world got the Spanish Inquisition. This is how it starts. One group is set aside for special treatment. Before it's over -- everybody has cause to be afraid.

In the early days of the ULC, the American government declared that the ULC was a bogus church. Kirby James Hensley fought back and prevailed. The Federal Judge declared that the American government does not get to say which churches are real. Aside from that, there is a rich history of governments persecuting churches. This is an obvious lesson from history. Governments do not have any but a legal authority to ban a church. Certainly, not a moral authority. Neither are churches dependent on government recognition for moral authority or legitimacy. If the church does not want tax advantages, there is no need to incorporate. Without tax breaks, the church is free to be what ever it wants. That is true freedom of religion. The downfall of churches is not being willing to live without government support. Government support comes with strings. (Chains.) Government support always comes with a price. "Sheckles have Shackles."

People don't need permits to gather for a party. If you don't advertise, it is a social gathering. If the numbers are small, there is no reason why anybody would even notice.

I know. It is silly. Atheism is not a religion. If religion is music, Atheism is silence. Still, the First Church of Atheism seems to be legally incorporated as a church. Such is life. Things can be strange. Nothing is stranger than the law. There is also, the Apathetic Agnostic Church (UCTAA). The church motto is "We don't know and we don't care". This -- at least to me -- is an actual religious philosophy. The Apathetic Agnostic Church is not incorporated. The founder thought it was too much trouble and too much money. It suits me well. Apathetic Agnostics don't need government recognition.

We do ask each other questions. The better to understand each other. Generally, the spirit behind a question is what makes it friendly or hostile. A question asked in friendliness will make no enemies. When we avoid being mean, there are no problems. Ask away. Just be nice about it.

Pantheism conflates God with Nature. God is not a personal entity but something much more abstract. Monotheism is largely about Scripture and Revelation. God is personal. The connection is personal. The codes of conduct are Commands.

For the truly devout, Atheism is a thought crime. Crime is for punishment. As in damnation. Of course, the Fundamentalist is quick to explain -- there is no hate in their heart. This is the Word of God.". Needless to say, they don't understand the Atheist reaction. Fundamentalists also proceed on the assumption "that if it's not from God, it's of the Devil" Again, they don't understand the Atheist response, to being told they worship the Devil. They are a remarkably judgmental lot. They love to quote Psalm 14/53: "The fool says in his heart, there is no God." Pardon me. No judgment there. Only quoting "The Word.". Such is the religion of Love. In Saudi Arabia, Atheism is conflated with terrorism. Terrorists are executed. Apostates are also killed. Such is the religion of peace.

Yes. Between Rabbinic ideology and the real world, there is Jewish Atheism -- expressed as humor. 1. "There is no God and we are his people." Also expressed as hostility. 2. "May you lose your faith and marry a pious woman!"

It depends on what we mean by God. You seem to be talking about the God of Pantheism. Different from the God of Monotheism.

Or a Nativity scene. That would be the "war on Christmas".

Yes. It works for me.

Are you sure of your facts? I've spoken with some Atheists who were true fools. Still, death threats? It seems unlikely.

Real life is different. Face to face, I have no difficulty dealing with fools. On Facebook? Life is too short to roll around in the mud with trolls. I don't care enough. I can't be bothered. "Oh, look. Someone on the internet is wrong. And stupid And vicious." Repetition is part of it. They keep coming up with the same silly challenges. They will begin by demanding proof that God doesn't exist. They will ask stupid questions about evolution -- establishing that they have no science knowledge and no coherent thought. They demand proof of the Big Bang theory. They keep coming up with Pascal's wager. Again. As though it were the first time. The questions don't change. They keep asking the same stupid questions -- over and over again. In fairness, it's not only the pious who act like total louts and jerks. I've also left a few Atheist groups because they don't know how to be civil with Agnostics. Sometimes, the group piles on. Why stay and fight when the exit is right there? And it's so easy to click on "Leave Group"? There are times when talking to an Atheist group is like talking to religious Fundamentalists. Their minds are set in stone. Time to leave.

This thread was just starting to dip into the nature of illusion. I hope people have more to say about this.

When we can't admit, even to our selves, that we no longer believe? Yes. Of course, maintaining a false front will be stressful. Living a lie -- an inauthentic life -- is doomed to be painful. Of course, some of us -- they know who they are -- think that belief is a choice.

I think that our labels are what we hide behind, when we want to show a false face to the world.

I have been spending some time on Facebook with the various godless groups. The labels vary. Some say Agnostic or Atheist or Free-thought. Much the same difference. I mention this because they all attract the same mindless Christian trolls. They engage in drive by preaching. They demand to know how anybody can not believe. They insult everybody who does not believe. They threaten non-believers with damnation. To my surprise, the Muslim trolls are even more irritating than the Christian trolls. Does any of it really matter to me? No, but it irritates. Like sand in a wet swim suit. It has been an interesting experience. I'm pulling out of these groups because I've had the experience and see no need to keep it coming in my life. This much I have discovered. My Atheism has become harsher as a result.

Over time, it blurs. I forget which threats came from which Fundamentalist. We all know the party line. Belief is a choice. If you choose not to believe, you will burn. If you had studied Scripture, you would believe. Well, I did study the Scriptures. Look at some of the gems I came up with. The same people told me to pray. While it fills me with shame to admit it, I did pray. My eyes were opened. Not the way they intended. When the pious tell me to study Scripture, so that I will learn the truth -- what I find is the result of my instructions. Ask Dan if my understanding of these Scriptures is faulty. Dan is annoying, but he's honest. He will insist that every awful, hateful thing in Scripture is literally the Gospel truth.

I understand your desire to be fair. The Bible is not interested in being fair. Neither are the people who hold it inerrant. Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations