Jonathan H. B. Lobl

My sympathies. I never lost a close friend in quite that way. Still, my sympathies. Their loss.

Have a wonderful trip. I hope you enjoy it.

I picked up an interesting line recently. "An assertion that can be made without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

I have not observed kindness or love to be innate to children. Children can be mean. Children will tear the wings off a fly and then laugh at it. Children think the Three Stooges are funny. Children enjoy seeing people fall on the ice and not be able to stand. Empathy for the suffering of others has to be developed over time. I don't know how much bias is natural to children. Racial, gender or anything else. It's the whole Nature vs. Nurture argument. I am clear that adults, have false expectations, of kindness and love when dealing with children. Why are classroom bullies, so much a part of childhood?

Your argument is clever. Something seems lacking. I'm not certain if this is a weakness in your argument, or is unacceptable to my bias.

I see that you are still trying to be reasonable. You over look the obvious. Everybody else has religion. Dan has God and Christ.

1. When Dan tells me that his faith was a choice -- and that nothing can change that faith -- I take him at his word. 2. That's a disturbing thought. I'm going to have to think about that. Are you suggesting that there is someone who does know? In what way is God knowable?

I'm going to have to take this topic in small bites. The topic is too complex to be expansive. If we want to know what children are being taught -- we have to listen to what comes out of the mouths of children. This is much more than formal education. But clearly, instruction was taking place. I used to have a circle of Hasidic friends. In one household, there were two young boys. Brothers. When they wanted to be mean to each other -- the worst, most hurtful thing they could come up with was -- "You're a goy!". Education is not simple, but lessons are learned. An addendum: When I was a child, my religious instruction was Reform Jewish Sunday school. Reform Judaism is lacking in substance. In practice, the bulk of my education was history. The history, in turn, boiled down to the simplistic. Look what "they" did to "us" for the last 5,000 years. So much for my early childhood, formal training.

If you want to go private, I'm here for you.

Education takes so many forms. Formal childhood education is one piece of a whole. Does the group teach Universal equality? Or do the people with the wrong beliefs go to Hell Fire? Do the people mix freely with others? Or is there cultural isolation? Is there a sense of being persecuted by others? How much time is spent on formal church prayer? How complex is church culture? Are they afraid of outsiders? I'm no Sociologist. Or Anthropologist. A serious examination of childhood training is not a simple mater.

I mourn your loss.

The Pledge was a secular statement of loyalty until 1954. Under the Eisenhower administration, The Pledge was perverted to become a manifestation of the Cold War. Under God was inserted, in order to distinguish "us" from the "Godless Commies". It was done for the sake of Dominionist Theocracy, and I have despised it, since I was old enough to understand the issues. It shames me to consider how many times I recited the Pledge, because I couldn't summon the nerve to go against the social norms. My days of being craven are behind me. Few things enrage me, like being told that it doesn't matter. That I can go silent for the two words. That I can cough or mumble at the critical moment. -- (Yes Dan. You.) -- That I should give silent assent, through silence -- and so be complicit in social corruption.

The Pledge is a perverted misappropriation. Over the years, it has gotten to me as few things have.

One of the Humanist groups, has taken a strong stance against the Pledge of Allegiance, in it's current form. The line is -- Don't stand for the Pledge.

When a Fundamentalist tells me, that he has chosen to believe, on faith alone, and that no evidence can possibly shake that belief -- I tend to take them at their word. It pretty much defines the state of being closed minded. The determination to continue believing, no matter what, without regard to evidence. Yes. The Agnostic may have difficulty accepting evidence -- but at least, the party line welcomes evidence. Faith and belief are not, per se, regarded as virtues. Not even disbelief.

Only the Orthodox.

This is starting to look a lot like the free will vs. determinism argument. I'm at a loss to respond, except to say that, I think I have an open mind.

Humanism is more than non-belief. More than not knowing. Humanism is an attempt to create something new. I decided that Humanism deserved it's own thread; apart from Agnosticism and Atheism.

You were provoked.

That sums it up well. Good job.

I'm going to split a hair with you. The Agnostic who is waiting for evidence -- is waiting for evidence. Yes, confirmation bias will still filter which evidence is acceptable, but there is still at least the idea, of possible evidence. Evidence which is not yet available and must be awaited. Contrast with the Fundamentalist position. Nothing will change their mind. Nothing. If anything does, it will result in eternal damnation. It's a different head. Regarding your own confirmation bias: Cognitive Science has produced interesting and useful results. What has faith produced? (Dan -- Songster -- etc. You might want to take this one.)

Yes. Waiting for evidence. Some of us still care about external reality. When faith is not enough.

I know. Oh, do I know. Despite all rational intentions, he does irritate.

I think this is the perfect time to drop the qualifier. "With respect"? What respect? I know that you have been deeply conditioned to be polite -- and nice -- but sometimes, truth is more important. Really. Respect? For Dan? That ship sailed a long time ago.

I feel awful for your situation. I do wish I had something useful to offer. Or more comforting. Alas, I have nothing to offer but my deepest sympathies. Jonathan