Jonathan H. B. Lobl

On this your point is well taken. That was a poor choice of words and I apologise.

This is not going well. I see small point in continuing.

I accept that you are sincere and well intentioned. Not sane. Just sincere and well intentioned. No.

Don't play with words. Fear based content. Terrorist threats. Perdition. Hell Fire. The meaning is clear enough. I'm not having it.

I have a friendly nature, much given to amiable discussion. What i'm not looking for is a religious argument or disputation. I have never seen anything good come from that stuff. I tell you that our basic understanding is not compatible. I regard the Bible as mythology. Not the inerrent Word. I am an Agnostic. Nothing about God is objective and verifiable. I am also an Apatheist. Some version of God could possibly exist. It's not worth arguing about. I ask again. Are you sure you want to do this? Nothing good comes from religious arguments. I think it's a mistake.

Welcome to the forum.

The invisible assumptions are clear enough. The Bible is referenced as the Word of God. Are you sure you want this discussion?

Yes. Just so.

I'm back on line after a few months. Where to begin? No to fear based content. No to the stories about Hell. Lying for Christ is definitely a thing. Perhaps if there was less lying about other things - death bed renunciation and conversion and such. Seriously, Lying for Christ seems to be a Christian hobby. I remain Agnostic. Nothing about God is objective and verifiable. Nothing at all. I still know bovine flatulence when I'm exposed to it. I have read the Bible. It's too late to tell me about the inerrent word. It's too late to tell me about the Old Serpent. It's too late to tell me about Christians. (I've met a few) Much joy may your faith bring you. I find it as convincing and persuasive as the Flat Earth arguments.

The whole thing stinks of pious fraud and **. Lies. All lies. For some reason, fraudulent last words are considered good lies. The disdain for honesty is horrible.

I don't know where to begin. I read the Bible. It is mythology. I do not believe in God. I do not believe in Jesus. I am not afraid of yoga or meditation. I'm all for friendly conversation. I am not looking for an argument.

I expect you mean death? Yes. We will all die. I choose to not be afraid.

Our realities are not converging.

Only if it's real. I am committed to rejecting fear based content.

Fear is at the heart of Christianity. Take out Hell and damnation - what's left? What is the first question an evangelist asks? "Have you been saved?" Of course the whole body of Christian doctrine. God sacrificed himself to himself to save us from himself for something that we didn't do - because God is incapable of forgiveness without pain and blood. The appeal is lost on me.

Well, I'm still here. Jonathan

Yes. One question remains. Why does the HQ site in Modesto still think it's 2006? I've given up hope for the October gathering to resume.

All tribal? I don't know. If I did it would still be over generalizing.

First, a quibble. We are not talking about organized religion. We are talking about institutional religion. What would replace institutional religion? At the risk of being unfair, that is like asking what would replace cancer. We would still be social creatures with mutual interests. I think that we could manage to get by without the supernatural. If all religious texts were lost, what would we really lose? Atheism would be reborn with every independent mind, no matter what it was called.

There is nothing here that I can respond too.

I'm not sure what I can contribute. The importance of forgiveness? Maybe. Demons and witchcraft? The occult? Sorcery? Yoga? I have nothing to contribute. This is paranoia and fear.

I used your link. Ulchq.com That worked. It took me to the Modesto hq. Foolish me. I had been using ulchq.net - which the Monastery uses to drive business to their site. Dirty, dirty. Just one problem. The authentic hq site in Modesto still thinks it's 2006. I'm glad I found it again. I grieve that it's 18 years out of date.

I use Google Chrome.

I don't want to jump to conclusions. The Monastery seems to be in control of the HQ website. This automatic transfer to the .org website is going to seriously confuse people. How long has this been going on? Why did I have to find out? I think someone in administration is asleep at the switch.

Thanks, Jonathan