Dan56 Posted November 2, 2020 Report Share Posted November 2, 2020 7 hours ago, RevBogovac said: You god is. It is the "old" hostage taker dilemma... but even more discerning; if you god was really omnipotent, all-knowing and loving as you say then he simply should have found a solution which doesn't include the killing of en entire nation of innocent kids. For 400 years, generation after generation, there was no solution.. God being omniscient probably knew that there would never be a solution, so he brought the madness to a screeching halt. There's no solution but one for those who continually rebel against God. Wrath is the end of God's patience. The Canaanites likely sacrificed more children as burnt offerings to Baal over 400 years than God had eradicated, so who was the real villain to the kids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Dan56 said: For 400 years, generation after generation, there was no solution.. God being omniscient probably knew that there would never be a solution, so he brought the madness to a screeching halt. There's no solution but one for those who continually rebel against God. Wrath is the end of God's patience. The Canaanites likely sacrificed more children as burnt offerings to Baal over 400 years than God had eradicated, so who was the real villain to the kids? God being all powerful and knowing means he set the circumstances up in the first place for there to be no solution. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevBogovac Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 8 hours ago, cuchulain said: God being all powerful and knowing means he set the circumstances up in the first place for there to be no solution. Exactly. All-mighty and all-knowing, maybe. But not very "loving" in my book... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevBogovac Posted November 3, 2020 Report Share Posted November 3, 2020 12 hours ago, Dan56 said: The Canaanites likely sacrificed more children as burnt offerings to Baal over 400 years than God had eradicated, so who was the real villain to the kids? What is this? A pissing match? If your god really was all-mighty and all-knowing acting out of love he would have found a better solution than infanticide... It's like saying the Germans put millions of Jews to death so now we'll eradicate all the Germans. Sure, it's a point of view... but don't come telling me that it's the point of view of an omnipotent being that is acting out of love... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 On 11/2/2020 at 7:10 PM, cuchulain said: God being all powerful and knowing means he set the circumstances up in the first place for there to be no solution. Sacrificing children wasn't a circumstance God set up. The solution was in the hands of those doing such detestable things. Its called "free will". 18 hours ago, RevBogovac said: What is this? A pissing match? If your god really was all-mighty and all-knowing acting out of love he would have found a better solution than infanticide... It's like saying the Germans put millions of Jews to death so now we'll eradicate all the Germans. Sure, it's a point of view... but don't come telling me that it's the point of view of an omnipotent being that is acting out of love... A God of love, yes.. But He is also a God of wrath.. And many Germans who had nothing to do with exterminating Jews were killed. God did offer a solution to the Canaanites, but they rejected it. The biblical God does not impose His Will onto us, but He does and will react to our choices. We are here to be tested and have the freedom to commit grievous sins, but judgement falls on everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevBogovac Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 4 hours ago, Dan56 said: [...] Yeah, you just keep on justifying your "loving, almighty" god committing infanticide (sic!) At least it's consistent. Good for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 We act based on genetics and environment both of which God controls absolutely. You know the all powerful bit? Then our free will must by definition be illusion. Meaning God set it up entirely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted November 4, 2020 Report Share Posted November 4, 2020 10 hours ago, cuchulain said: We act based on genetics and environment both of which God controls absolutely. You know the all powerful bit? Then our free will must by definition be illusion. Meaning God set it up entirely Nonsense.. We aren't controlled by our genetics or the environment. Christianity teaches us to overcome the world and flesh by bringing them under complete subjection to your spirit. Your essentially saying that we are all screw-ups and its God's fault. That would only be true if we didn't have brains and free will, that's what separates us from plants & animals. The choices we make are not illusions, they are very real and have consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Dan56 said: Nonsense.. We aren't controlled by our genetics or the environment. Christianity teaches us to overcome the world and flesh by bringing them under complete subjection to your spirit. Your essentially saying that we are all screw-ups and its God's fault. That would only be true if we didn't have brains and free will, that's what separates us from plants & animals. The choices we make are not illusions, they are very real and have consequences. How do you learn Christian beliefs? Oh yeah...your environmental upbringing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 5 hours ago, cuchulain said: How do you learn Christian beliefs? Oh yeah...your environmental upbringing. From a collection of God inspired books called the bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 4 hours ago, Dan56 said: From a collection of God inspired books called the bible. The environmental learning, yes. So you clearly agree that we are a product of our environment and genetics. And that God created and set the rules for both. And that he is by default responsible for his programming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted November 5, 2020 Report Share Posted November 5, 2020 9 hours ago, cuchulain said: The environmental learning, yes. So you clearly agree that we are a product of our environment and genetics. And that God created and set the rules for both. And that he is by default responsible for his programming. True if not for free-will, but since we are not robots and capable of independent thinking, its not logical to blame God for our woe's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted November 6, 2020 Report Share Posted November 6, 2020 14 hours ago, Dan56 said: True if not for free-will, but since we are not robots and capable of independent thinking, its not logical to blame God for our woe's. If God is responsible for our environment and genetics and those are what determines how we choose then yes he is. Now you have said that the environmental option was nonsense and you have agreed with it. Obviously he would be responsible for the genetic option since he designed it. He stacked the deck from the all knowing perspective you credit him with. Yep you agree he's responsible...your just afraid to admit it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted November 7, 2020 Report Share Posted November 7, 2020 17 hours ago, cuchulain said: If God is responsible for our environment and genetics and those are what determines how we choose then yes he is. Now you have said that the environmental option was nonsense and you have agreed with it. Obviously he would be responsible for the genetic option since he designed it. He stacked the deck from the all knowing perspective you credit him with. Yep you agree he's responsible...your just afraid to admit it Our environment and genetics might influence us, but they don't determine or control our choices. We aren't genetically predisposed to sin, nor does our environment determine our choices. Christ being the perfect example, did not make choices based on his genetic composition, nor did he yield to the physical environment. Our spirit (mind) can rise above what and where we are. God is responsible for the what and where, but we independently determined who we are and what we'll do. Saying that our fate is predetermine by God excuses us of any responsibility, but our decisions are our own, they don't emanate from our genetic makeup nor our we environmentally controlled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted November 7, 2020 Report Share Posted November 7, 2020 If we're not predisposed to sin we're not beholden to the original sin and not born in need of salvation and your religion becomes a racket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted November 8, 2020 Report Share Posted November 8, 2020 17 hours ago, cuchulain said: If we're not predisposed to sin we're not beholden to the original sin and not born in need of salvation and your religion becomes a racket We are condemned to a sinful world because everyone has freely chosen to sin, condemnation is not the result of anything Adam & Eve did, that event just set the stage. If they did not commit the original (first) sin, the next guy would have. Sin is nothing more than disobedience to God, and rebelling against our Creator does require salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted November 8, 2020 Report Share Posted November 8, 2020 Nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted November 8, 2020 Report Share Posted November 8, 2020 6 hours ago, cuchulain said: Nonsense If you see no sin in the world, your blind.. If you don't think you have the ability to freely make decisions, your in denial.. If you think your condemned because of something Eve did 6000 years ago, your wrong.. If you don't believe salvation is a necessity, your lost.. And if you think religion is a racket, your 90% correct.. Nonsense is the insistence of accepting a lie because of an inability to discern the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted November 9, 2020 Report Share Posted November 9, 2020 22 hours ago, Dan56 said: If you see no sin in the world, your blind.. If you don't think you have the ability to freely make decisions, your in denial.. If you think your condemned because of something Eve did 6000 years ago, your wrong.. If you don't believe salvation is a necessity, your lost.. And if you think religion is a racket, your 90% correct.. Nonsense is the insistence of accepting a lie because of an inability to discern the truth. Truth in my view requires fact. Lack of evidence would suggest you have your statement correct but applicable to yourself instead. Can you accurately define delusional? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJensen89 Posted November 26, 2020 Report Share Posted November 26, 2020 On 11/4/2020 at 2:39 PM, cuchulain said: We act based on genetics and environment both of which God controls absolutely. You know the all powerful bit? Then our free will must by definition be illusion. Meaning God set it up entirely You can really talk about this for a very long time. If you take for example characters from a computer game, perhaps these characters are also confident that they are consciously making this or that choice. But everything is predetermined already in advance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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