VonNoble Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 Some variation of this has been around - apparently since the days of ancient philosophers, however it is new to me. It seems some wise old guys gathered a random few children around and encouraged them them to have a piece of candy even though the old duffers were well aware that the mothers had admonished the kids NOT to accept sweets before their next meal. The story goes...the kids thought it over, knew the men in question (or at least some of them) and knew they were important men...authority figures recognized in the community. Perhaps, in the mind of a kid wanting candy - perhaps even more of an authority than mom. So they each accepted the candy and enjoyed it. Before leaving the authority figures (who were doing this experiment just to see the impact of being authority figures with the children) put a second "test to the kids"......they asked them to come into another room in pairs. Once in the room one kid was then asked to punch the other. For no reason. Just punch them. Just punch them in the face ! But the children would not do this. They refused to punch another kid for no reason. They refused to punch another kid even for greater rewards than on piece of candy, for refused for praise - or simply because the authority figures ordered them to do so....they even refused when there was a threat to tell mom that they did not do as asked by people with even greater authority (after all that was the rationale for taking candy).......they refused flatly to punch someone with no reason. The conclusion was that kids seem to be able to sort out some degree of right and wrong - possibly even in spite of authority. They show signs of having a fairly balanced sense of right and wrong on their own. If that whole thing were true - - can we conclude kids to some extent develop a moral compass naturally most of the time? Just curious. von Quote Link to comment
mererdog Posted April 2, 2018 Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 1 hour ago, VonNoble said: If that whole thing were true - - can we conclude kids to some extent develop a moral compass naturally most of the time? No. You are trying to determine motive by examining action (or lack thereof). It doesn't work. The mother may never learn he ate the candy, but the other kid will know who hit him. This means you may simply be seeing children engaged in reflexive risk analysis, and accepting only rewards with an acceptable level of risk. Or not. We can't tell, can we? Quote Link to comment
VonNoble Posted April 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2018 4 hours ago, mererdog said: No. You are trying to determine motive by examining action (or lack thereof). It doesn't work. The mother may never learn he ate the candy, but the other kid will know who hit him. This means you may simply be seeing children engaged in reflexive risk analysis, and accepting only rewards with an acceptable level of risk. Or not. We can't tell, can we? I could not tell. The question was put to me. I could understand how the person explaining it to me came to the conclusions (so I could see the end picture was likely suppose to be a duck..... ) However my own thought processes could derive other options -so I was curious where the normative range if conclusions might fall. (Since we know from class I am not in the normative range in Philosophical thought) (that teacher is a doozie) Then again I have seen some parenting with extremely liberal hands off approaches produce some rule following kids.... so there may be no cause and effect ever... I am just mulling things over von Quote Link to comment
VonNoble Posted April 3, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2018 New input.....interesting quote... attributed to more than one person ( I am choosing to believe it was Aristotle) ”....morals are the child of habit...” This would indicate not so much of it arrives with us at birth.... Woukd that then also be true of the many who choose immoral behavior? All (largely) a matter of habit? von Quote Link to comment
Key Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 On 4/3/2018 at 3:59 PM, VonNoble said: New input.....interesting quote... attributed to more than one person ( I am choosing to believe it was Aristotle) ”....morals are the child of habit...” This would indicate not so much of it arrives with us at birth.... Woukd that then also be true of the many who choose immoral behavior? All (largely) a matter of habit? von I have also heard, "Time is a teacher of manners." So, by this, it is also assumptive that morals can be a learned thing. Perhaps more of a personal experience thing than something that may be taught by others, though that can be a variable to some degree, as well. Quote Link to comment
Dan56 Posted April 5, 2018 Report Share Posted April 5, 2018 On 4/2/2018 at 11:45 AM, VonNoble said: The conclusion was that kids seem to be able to sort out some degree of right and wrong - possibly even in spite of authority. They show signs of having a fairly balanced sense of right and wrong on their own. If that whole thing were true - - can we conclude kids to some extent develop a moral compass naturally most of the time? Just curious. von Absolutely.. I believe morals are derived from our own experiences. We are taught manners, but our own sense of right and wrong essentially emanate and evolve from within ourselves, but of course outside influences can also weigh on our conscience. If you've ever been sick, you can certainly empathize with someone else who's sick, if you've ever suffered, you can develop compassion for others who are suffering. Our moral values are shared experiences, those kids didn't want to punch another kid because it wasn't warranted, and at some time, they undoubtedly had been hurt themselves, so they were opposed to inflicting harm and pain needlessly on another person for no reason.. Morality superseded authority and commonsense took precedence.. We can probably learn a lot from kids. Quote Link to comment
VonNoble Posted April 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 On 4/5/2018 at 5:37 AM, Key said: I have also heard, "Time is a teacher of manners." So, by this, it is also assumptive that morals can be a learned thing. Perhaps more of a personal experience thing than something that may be taught by others, though that can be a variable to some degree, as well. I agree. We add and delete traits etc as they prove useful to us..... or so it seems. I am told that others disagree with that.... and I am not particularly well read on the matter. It is just an observation in my own life. von Quote Link to comment
VonNoble Posted April 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2018 21 hours ago, Dan56 said: Absolutely.. I believe morals are derived from our own experiences. We are taught manners, but our own sense of right and wrong essentially emanate and evolve from within ourselves, but of course outside influences can also weigh on our conscience. If you've ever been sick, you can certainly empathize with someone else who's sick, if you've ever suffered, you can develop compassion for others who are suffering. Our moral values are shared experiences, those kids didn't want to punch another kid because it wasn't warranted, and at some time, they undoubtedly had been hurt themselves, so they were opposed to inflicting harm and pain needlessly on another person for no reason.. Morality superseded authority and commonsense took precedence.. We can probably learn a lot from kids. I find we are very much on agreement on this one. von Quote Link to comment
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