Overgrown Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 I just thought I'd start this thread and post this question on behalf of other posters on this forum. Here are over 2 million google links on the subject in case you want to look them up.... https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=why does god allow children to suffer and die Regards, OG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 Thanks, but even with 2 million google links, most members here will blame God for everything.. God not only allows suffering and death, he ordained it for everyone born in the flesh. While its sad to see some go early, its not always God's fault. Salvation comes after a natural death, not before. Wanting to live a long life in the flesh is a natural desire, but not so important from a divine prospective. Our vantage point only allows us to see half the picture, perhaps we would envy those who departed early if we knew the glory they entered into? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgrown Posted December 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 (edited) Good post Dan. Looking at my own children, I see how sometimes they can spoil it for themselves and spoil it for others too (without knowing the gravity of what they have done.) Adults take it to a whole new level. Unfortunately, under the law, every debt, no matter how small, has to be paid for one way or another - right down to the last cent. Edited December 18, 2016 by Overgrown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted December 18, 2016 Report Share Posted December 18, 2016 9 hours ago, Dan56 said: Thanks, but even with 2 million google links, most members here will blame God for everything.. God not only allows suffering and death, he ordained it for everyone born in the flesh. While its sad to see some go early, its not always God's fault. Salvation comes after a natural death, not before. Wanting to live a long life in the flesh is a natural desire, but not so important from a divine prospective. Our vantage point only allows us to see half the picture, perhaps we would envy those who departed early if we knew the glory they entered into? That sounds a lot like the foundation for a death cult. Oh, wait. We already have one. It involves the death of God on a cross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) On 17/12/2016 at 8:22 PM, Overgrown said: I just thought I'd start this thread and post this question on behalf of other posters on this forum. Here are over 2 million google links on the subject in case you want to look them up.... https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=why does god allow children to suffer and die Regards, OG. A good question which cannot be properly answered as we cannot know anything about God. It does seem strange that God would allow such suffering as humans would not if we could stop it. Let me add to your question by asking theists why they think God causes the unjust suffering when he kills or tortures innocent babies and children in scriptures? Google this link below as it shows a few examples of this and pronounces the right verdict. PBS: God on Trial, the Verdict on Vimeo Regards DL Edited January 1, 2017 by Gnostic Bishop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 On 18/12/2016 at 1:37 AM, Dan56 said: Thanks, but even with 2 million google links, most members here will blame God for everything.. God not only allows suffering and death, he ordained it for everyone born in the flesh. While its sad to see some go early, its not always God's fault. Salvation comes after a natural death, not before. Wanting to live a long life in the flesh is a natural desire, but not so important from a divine prospective. Our vantage point only allows us to see half the picture, perhaps we would envy those who departed early if we knew the glory they entered into? Indeed, and following that thinking, --- given that your scriptures say that the vast majority of us will take the wide road to hell instead of the narrow path to heaven, --- indicates that the moral thing to do would be for believers to kill their children as early as possible to insure they get to heaven. Right? Or do you think it more moral to let most of our children suffer hell instead of enjoying heaven? Is it a parents duty to insure the best possible end for their children? Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 12 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said: the moral thing to do would be for believers to kill their children as early as possible to insure they get to heaven. Now your being absurd... Murdering children would put yourself in hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 8 hours ago, Dan56 said: Now your being absurd... Murdering children would put yourself in hell. You are suggesting that God deserves Hell. A crime of omission is still a crime. In American law, it comes under the heading of "depraved indifference". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 10 hours ago, Dan56 said: Now your being absurd... Murdering children would put yourself in hell. That is likely where we are all headed given what your bible says about the narrow path to heaven. It seems that you would put your welfare ahead of your children's. Strange that you can think that you would enjoy heaven while having to watch most of your friends and family burning in endless torment beneath you. I would die and would ignore hell for my children and it looks like you would not. What does that tell you of your ideology? Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: You are suggesting that God deserves Hell. A crime of omission is still a crime. In American law, it comes under the heading of "depraved indifference". Now now. Don't forget that Christians have an immoral double standard of morality that they use to forgive their God for what they would soundly condemn a man for doing. Like the torture and murder of babies. They end with a do as I say God and not as I do. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: You are suggesting that God deserves Hell. A crime of omission is still a crime. In American law, it comes under the heading of "depraved indifference". No, GB suggested murdering your children so they can go to heaven (ridiculous), but the law says; "Thou shalt not murder".. Life and death are God's Providence, its not a crime of omission when He renders judgement and decides when or why to take or give life.. God is not bound by American law either, He can't be guilty of depraved indifference when its impossible for God to be culpable of it. We may not understand why God would take a life, but then again, we don't understand why He gives life either. 2 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said: That is likely where we are all headed given what your bible says about the narrow path to heaven. It seems that you would put your welfare ahead of your children's. Strange that you can think that you would enjoy heaven while having to watch most of your friends and family burning in endless torment beneath you. I would die and would ignore hell for my children and it looks like you would not. What does that tell you of your ideology? Regards DL As stated, life and death fall under God's domain. its His prerogative to take and give it... God also created time, and as it passes, time takes all life.. Killing your children is not putting their welfare ahead of your own, its simply denying them life, and we can't save anyone by killing them. I believe that all remembrance of friends & family doomed to the Lake of Fire will be removed, so it won't be possible to enjoy or mourn those who are condemned. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Revelation 21:4). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 4 minutes ago, Dan56 said: No, GB suggested murdering your children so they can go to heaven (ridiculous), but the law says; "Thou shalt not murder".. Life and death are God's Providence, its not a crime of omission when He renders judgement and decides when or why to take or give life.. God is not bound by American law either, He can't be guilty of depraved indifference when its impossible for God to be culpable of it. We may not understand why God would take a life, but then again, we don't understand why He gives life either. As stated, life and death fall under God's domain. its His prerogative to take and give it... God also created time, and as it passes, time takes all life.. Killing your children is not putting their welfare ahead of your own, its simply denying them life, and we can't save anyone by killing them. I believe that all remembrance of friends & family doomed to the Lake of Fire will be removed, so it won't be possible to enjoy or mourn those who are condemned. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Revelation 21:4). Faith based garbage that I will ignore. "Killing your children is not putting their welfare ahead of your own, its simply denying them life, and we can't save anyone by killing them." Christians put more value to life after death as it is eternal. Here you are saying that a life that will send most to hell is better than insuring heaven for our offspring. You show a twisted view of your duty as a parent, which is to insure the best possible end. This shows how little faith you really have in your genocidal son murdering God. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 55 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said: Now now. Don't forget that Christians have an immoral double standard of morality that they use to forgive their God for what they would soundly condemn a man for doing. Like the torture and murder of babies. They end with a do as I say God and not as I do. Regards DL I think you misunderstand the emotional dynamic here. It is not love of an immoral God. What it is is terror. Suppose you fully believe in this monstrous God. An all powerful, all knowing monster, who knows your every thought before you do. A jealous monster who demands constant love, adoration and worship. Damn right. You had better love Him and forgive Him -- or else. Think of Stockholm syndrome, but much worse. Then pity the poor craven Christians who truly believe. In their place, what would you do? Remember. Perdition awaits all who don't know the right answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: I think you misunderstand the emotional dynamic here. It is not love of an immoral God. What it is is terror. Suppose you fully believe in this monstrous God. An all powerful, all knowing monster, who knows your every thought before you do. A jealous monster who demands constant love, adoration and worship. Damn right. You had better love Him and forgive Him -- or else. Think of Stockholm syndrome, but much worse. Then pity the poor craven Christians who truly believe. In their place, what would you do? Remember. Perdition awaits all who don't know the right answer. I cannot answer as to what I would do if I was a believer as I am not a sheeple. You are likely right though that if I was a believer, I would follow out of fear. I see, thanks to stories like this one in google--- Carlton Pearson: To Hell and Back (Part 1) --- that hate for all others not of their ilk also plays a major part. It seems that Christians like the idea of others ending in hell for not thinking as they do. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 54 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said: I cannot answer as to what I would do if I was a believer as I am not a sheeple. You are likely right though that if I was a believer, I would follow out of fear. I see, thanks to stories like this one in google--- Carlton Pearson: To Hell and Back (Part 1) --- that hate for all others not of their ilk also plays a major part. It seems that Christians like the idea of others ending in hell for not thinking as they do. Regards DL Remember Pascal's Wager? It is the deep, soul crushing terror of eternal damnation, that is at the heart of Christian faith. As it plainly states in Proverbs "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." Pity the poor Christian Fundamentalist. They are as much prey as they are hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: Remember Pascal's Wager? It is the deep, soul crushing terror of eternal damnation, that is at the heart of Christian faith. As it plainly states in Proverbs "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." Pity the poor Christian Fundamentalist. They are as much prey as they are hunter. I hear you but not being a sheeple, I do not believe that some God who created me has also condemned me. If the option is to follow a genocidal son murderer and think him good, then I guess my honest revulsion of such a God has condemned me to hell if there is such a place. You bring the beer and I will bring the grub. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 28 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said: I hear you but not being a sheeple, I do not believe that some God who created me has also condemned me. If the option is to follow a genocidal son murderer and think him good, then I guess my honest revulsion of such a God has condemned me to hell if there is such a place. You bring the beer and I will bring the grub. Regards DL Various Atheists have speculated on what it means to go to Heaven. To be truly and fully in the presence of God for all of eternity. You know. God. Mean, spiteful, jealous, vengeful, vain, vindictive, petty -- constantly needing to be praised, worshiped, loved and adored. Always knowing every thought you have. EVERY THOUGHT. Always in THE PRESENCE. Always. Forever and ever and ever. Always in God's presence. How bad can Hell be? It has to be better than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 I hear you. If we are to have to spend eternity kissing someone's ***, it may as well be where we might get some of the same done to us. People spout on about eternity without ever having even an inkling about of thought of how boring such a time or place would be. You can only watch re-runs for a few thousand years before boredom would set in and souls would be looking hard to end their existence. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said: "Killing your children is not putting their welfare ahead of your own, its simply denying them life, and we can't save anyone by killing them." Christians put more value to life after death as it is eternal. Here you are saying that a life that will send most to hell is better than insuring heaven for our offspring. That's true, most Christians value an everlasting spiritual life more than our temporary physical existence in the flesh. I don't understand your second comment? But 'you' can't insure heaven for your offspring, or anyone else.. Even children don't enter heaven without accepting Christ first, that's what the millennium is for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dan56 said: That's true, most Christians value an everlasting spiritual life more than our temporary physical existence in the flesh. I don't understand your second comment? But 'you' can't insure heaven for your offspring, or anyone else.. Even children don't enter heaven without accepting Christ first, that's what the millennium is for. Just can't get off of your scapegoat can you? It takes some kind of gullible and inflated ego to think that a God would die for you. Oops, God cannot die. Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. As Ingersoll said; 'no man would be fit for heaven who would consent that an innocent person should suffer for his sin.' If you cannot understand that simple morality then you just show how your beliefs have corrupted your morality. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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