Hope

[Cornelius]

In another thread hyper posted a Nietzsche quote. Rather then address it most just decided to attack Nietzsche rather then his argument. A fairly common knee jerk reaction when it comes to Nietzsche. I thought I would post the quote in its original context for discussion.

Hope. Pandora brought the jar ²⁵ with the evils and opened it. It was the gods' gift to man, on the outside a beautiful, enticing gift, called the "lucky jar." Then all the evils, those lively, winged beings, flew out of it. Since that time, they roam around and do harm to men by day and night. One single evil had not yet slipped out of the jar. As Zeus had wished, Pandora slammed the top down and it remained inside. So now man has the lucky jar in his house forever and thinks the world of the treasure. It is at his service; he reaches for it when he fancies it. For he does not know that that jar which Pandora brought was the jar of evils, and he takes the remaining evil for the greatest worldly good--it is hope, for Zeus did not want man to throw his life away, no matter how much the other evils might torment him, but rather to go on letting himself be tormented anew. To that end, he gives man hope. In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment. ~Nietszche

http://nietzsche.hol...al_Feelings.htm

Thoughts?

Edited June 13, 2012 by Vegtam

[simplicitys-brother]

I think that we should not bother with hope. We plan the most unknown realm of existence and so long as we claim to not know we will have the mystery. Perhaps that is one of the games we play with ourselves.

Hope and luck are synonyms in that they both require preparation to be valuable and it does take an amount of forecasting to predict what we should be prepared for.

Planning and execution of our plans give us knowledge of our futures and the expectations of the rewards for having done it well. It gives us the game of overcoming obstacles we can know about which results in happiness.

Nietzsche was a pompous ass.

[mererdog]

The thing that always amazes me about Neitzsche is that the punchline is never hidden, but most people still fail to see the joke. It's not just that they don't think it's funny, they don't even realize it's supposed to be., you know?:

Edited June 13, 2012 by speechless

[Cornelius]

I think that we should not bother with hope. We plan the most unknown realm of existence and so long as we claim to not know we will have the mystery. Perhaps that is one of the games we play with ourselves.

Hope and luck are synonyms in that they both require preparation to be valuable and it does take an amount of forecasting to predict what we should be prepared for.

Planning and execution of our plans give us knowledge of our futures and the expectations of the rewards for having done it well. It gives us the game of overcoming obstacles we can know about which results in happiness.

Very good Sb, I agree.

Those of a christian mindset probably tend to find hope comforting as they expect to be taken care of. Hope, at best imo, is nothing more than wishful thinking.

I would much rather have fortitude and resolve rather than hope.

As the ancient saying goes "The Gods help them that help themselves" ~Hercules the Strong

Nietzsche was a pompous ass.

excellent SB. Edited June 13, 2012 by Vegtam

[Cornelius]

The thing that always amazes me about Neitzsche is that the punchline is never hidden, but most people still fail to see the joke. It's not just that they don't think it's funny, they don't even realize it's supposed to be., you know?:

Please elaborate.

[Brother Kaman]

A man will starve hoping someone will feed him. One must get of their butt and take action to gain or accomplish. Hope merely delays the outcome.

[Ex Nihilo]

GK Chesterton had a very high opinion of Hope and, incidentally, a very low opinion of Nietzsche. Here's a couple of things he had to say about hope, but since he thought in paragraphs and not pithy remarks, his real brilliance is lost.

“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.”

“Hope is the power of being cheerful in circumstances that we know to be desperate.”

Hope is essential precisely because it, like love and forgiveness, is completely irrational. Rational qualities are completely unsuitable for an irrational world or irrational times, or even for irrational men.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Rev'd Rattlesnake

[Hyper Real]

Please elaborate.

I was going to say that as well.

I find it interesting that many people have an opinion on Nietzsche's work but very few have actually read his books.

[Ex Nihilo]

I was going to say that as well.

I find it interesting that many people have an opinion on Nietzsche's work but very few have actually read his books.

How do you know few people have read his works?

[Hyper Real]

How do you know few people have read his works?

Because every time I discuss Nietzsche's works with people they produce some caricature of his philosophy and when asked for details they just do not know.

[Ex Nihilo]

Because every time I discuss Nietzsche's works with people they produce some caricature of his philosophy and when asked for details they just do not know.

Sounds like a poor sample, most of the people I have mentioned Nietzsche to know all too well his books. They have read a good deal of them and, like me, reject them.

[Hyper Real]

Sounds like a poor sample, most of the people I have mentioned Nietzsche to know all too well his books. They have read a good deal of them and, like me, reject them.

And your sample is better than my sample because?

And it is not about accepting or rejecting his philosophy it is about actually understanding what he is talking about.

I think the problem is further enlarged by the fact that his most popular work: Also sprach Zarathustra, is not the best suitable book to start with in understanding his philosophy.

[Ex Nihilo]

And your sample is better than my sample because?

It's not and I never said it was. You however were using your limited personal experiences of casual conversations with people as the basis for some general rule that many people that have an opinion on Nietzsche's work have never actually read his books which I guess is tru efor those who support Nietzsche as it does for those who reject him. I was merely offering evidense that your experience is not universal and therefore a flawed basis for ageneral rule.

Persanally, I don't think you have to read Nietzsche to understand or have an opinion about him or his ideas. One doesn't have to be an alcoholic to know that drinking can lead to addiction. One doesn't have to smoke to know its ill effects. So it is true with Nietzsche. It may be helpful to read him, but not secessary. You just have to get your information from credible sources.

[Hyper Real]

I read all of Nietzsche's works (in German), how about you?

Edited June 13, 2012 by Hyper Real

[Ex Nihilo]

I've read a number in English. I enjoyed a few but I found the inevitible end of the road of his philosophical arguments makes monsters of men and worships strength and beauty for their own sakes, which are very hollow sorts of things to worship. Beauty is only useful if it makes other things beautiful and strength is only good when used to make the weak stronger. Its the philosophy of children who admire superheros in comic books and mad tyrants who fantasize that their race is the only race worth living. It is the philosophy of weakness and ugliness. Only those who are weak and ugly take notice with jealousy and infatuation the strong and beautiful. IMHO. Nietzsche was the apostle to the impotent and homely.

[Hyper Real]

I've read a number in English.

Which ones?

[Ex Nihilo]

Which ones?

Thus Spoke Zarathustru, Beyond Good & Evil, and I started The Gay Science but I don't recall finishing it. I feel like I'm leaving something off...

[steven8166]

I have read some of Nietzsche’s work, and I have to say that I am not impressed. He sounds like any other anti-God propaganda monger.

[Youch]

In another thread hyper posted a Nietzsche quote. Rather then address it most just decided to attack Nietzsche rather then his argument. A fairly common knee jerk reaction when it comes to Nietzsche. I thought I would post the quote in its original context for discussion.

Hope. Pandora brought the jar ²⁵ with the evils and opened it. It was the gods' gift to man, on the outside a beautiful, enticing gift, called the "lucky jar." Then all the evils, those lively, winged beings, flew out of it. Since that time, they roam around and do harm to men by day and night. One single evil had not yet slipped out of the jar. As Zeus had wished, Pandora slammed the top down and it remained inside. So now man has the lucky jar in his house forever and thinks the world of the treasure. It is at his service; he reaches for it when he fancies it. For he does not know that that jar which Pandora brought was the jar of evils, and he takes the remaining evil for the greatest worldly good--it is hope, for Zeus did not want man to throw his life away, no matter how much the other evils might torment him, but rather to go on letting himself be tormented anew. To that end, he gives man hope. In truth, it is the most evil of evils because it prolongs man's torment. ~Nietszche

http://nietzsche.hol...al_Feelings.htm

Thoughts?

So, we are to think that internal torment is natural? I suspect it might be, but we do have a choice....we can always open the jar to see it is empty! I endeavor to persevere!!

[Qryos]

“Hope is the power of being cheerful in circumstances that we know to be desperate.”

~ Thank you Rattlesnake

I relate to that line strongly { It's often my job }

~ Yo Happy, we'll just keep dancing & let those that gloom await their doom & we shall remain to play