Doctor Of Philosophy In Religion From Ulc

[RevTom]

It was my misunderstanding of your question: The only certification I have from ULC is the Certificate of Ordination. The degrees I mentioned earlier are from Candler School of Theology at Emory in Atlanta, Ga, and correspondence work I had to take as a student minister at University of West Georgia. The degree from Candler of course allowed me to be an ordained minister of UMC, and the Certificate of Ordination from ULC allows me to legally perform the sacraments.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 hours ago, Windwalker said:

It was my misunderstanding of your question: The only certification I have from ULC is the Certificate of Ordination. The degrees I mentioned earlier are from Candler School of Theology at Emory in Atlanta, Ga, and correspondence work I had to take as a student minister at University of West Georgia. The degree from Candler of course allowed me to be an ordained minister of UMC, and the Certificate of Ordination from ULC allows me to legally perform the sacraments.

 

Alright.  Except you don't need an ordination to perform sacraments.  At least in America, the government has no such regulatory authority.  The exception is marriage.  Even there, the couple has the option of a civil marriage -- and they can arrange for their own sacraments.  There is no ministerial license.  At least, nothing issued by the government.  

 

Legal issues aside, the world has a rich history of religious persecution.  This alone demonstrates that governments have no moral authority to control sacraments.

 

To my understanding, the primary issue for this thread is church issued degrees.  What do they count for and what use are they?  Ordination is a different topic.  

 

Just to put it on the table, I have the ULC ordination, the honorary D.D. and the Doctor of Metaphysics degree.  The ordination has come to mean something to me.  I'm not always sure what.  The honorary D.D. amuses me.  The Metaphysics degree has soured.  It's supposed to be an "earned" degree.  It's not.  

 

Which brings us back to the foundation of this thread.  The ULC issued Ph.D.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Without regard to legalities, I have a few thoughts on "value".  I don't want to be cosmic, so I will use my own experience.

 

My ordination by ULC means something to me.  It is what it is.  ULC ordained me.  No problem at all.

My honorary D.D. is like wise not an issue.  My church "honored" me with a title.

My "earned" Doctor of Metaphysics degree falls under the heading of youthful indiscretion.  I wouldn't do it now.

 

I have a friend who gained a Ph.D. in history.  It took him 11 years of hard work -- post graduate.  (On top of the Bachelor's degree)  That is what an earned doctorate is.  A $100 diploma is not funny.  It's fraud.  

[Key]

On 7/26/2017 at 9:05 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Without regard to legalities, I have a few thoughts on "value".  I don't want to be cosmic, so I will use my own experience.

 

My ordination by ULC means something to me.  It is what it is.  ULC ordained me.  No problem at all.

My honorary D.D. is like wise not an issue.  My church "honored" me with a title.

My "earned" Doctor of Metaphysics degree falls under the heading of youthful indiscretion.  I wouldn't do it now.

 

I have a friend who gained a Ph.D. in history.  It took him 11 years of hard work -- post graduate.  (On top of the Bachelor's degree)  That is what an earned doctorate is.  A $100 diploma is not funny.  It's fraud.  

I see your view and concede that it may be true in a way. Or one might also view it as, a good will offering was made to the church, and another honor was bestowed upon by the church because of it. Having to pass a test was merely semantics. If I remember correctly, one could keep retaking the test until one passes as long as the original payment was made. So, you were pretty much guaranteed one anyway.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

32 minutes ago, Key said:

I see your view and concede that it may be true in a way. Or one might also view it as, a good will offering was made to the church, and another honor was bestowed upon by the church because of it. Having to pass a test was merely semantics. If I remember correctly, one could keep retaking the test until one passes as long as the original payment was made. So, you were pretty much guaranteed one anyway.

 

An honorary degree is a good will offering.  An earned degree is a credential.  It signifies academic accomplishment.  I think this is similar to someone who never joined the military -- then makes up a story about being a war hero.  It's called "stolen valor".  

[Key]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

An honorary degree is a good will offering.  An earned degree is a credential.  It signifies academic accomplishment.  I think this is similar to someone who never joined the military -- then makes up a story about being a war hero.  It's called "stolen valor".  

Yes, but depends on if the person is honest about it. Telling someone that it is an honorary degree doesn't make it the same. So, really, it is up to how the person presents or represents it, doesn't it?

And in this day and age, an earned credential doesn't always present any more of an advantage than an honorary one unless it involves medicine, unfortunately.

Anyone can claim expertise or knowledge of something if they are well read, until it comes to prove in practice.

Trying to get something due to the sacrifice and service of others that one has not done themselves is "stolen valor".

[mererdog]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

An earned degree is a credential.  It signifies academic accomplishment.

It signifies that you met standards set by an educational body. Nothing more and nothing less. The real meaning of any credential comes from the credentialing body. A degree from Chico State means something drastically different than the same degree from Harvard. A degree from the ULC means something drastically different than the same degree from Harvard Divinity. That people do not understand this is not the fault of the ULC, or of those who hold ULC degrees. It is not stolen valor when people assume the Surgeon General must be in the Army.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Key said:

Yes, but depends on if the person is honest about it. Telling someone that it is an honorary degree doesn't make it the same. So, really, it is up to how the person presents or represents it, doesn't it?

And in this day and age, an earned credential doesn't always present any more of an advantage than an honorary one unless it involves medicine, unfortunately.

Anyone can claim expertise or knowledge of something if they are well read, until it comes to prove in practice.

Trying to get something due to the sacrifice and service of others that one has not done themselves is "stolen valor".

 

This is true.  Further, life gets interesting when someone decides that they have been lied too -- and takes the case to court.  It's then called, "intent to deceive".  Then the court decides on "intent".

 

Say, someone hires me as a Reiki practitioner.  Were they impressed by my status as a minister?  Not a problem as long as I state where I was ordained.  Was my earned doctorate in metaphysics a factor in the decision?  Well, now we have a shade of grey.  What was my intent in advertising this?  

 

Whether the case has merit or not -- it takes one unhappy customer to ruin your day.  And one Assistant District Attorney who's in a bad mood.   Call me paranoid.  The Law is a strange beast  -- and I think we need to be careful. 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[mererdog]

17 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Whether the case has merit or not -- it takes one unhappy customer to ruin your day.  And one Assistant District Attorney who's in a bad mood.   Call me paranoid.  The Law is a strange beast  -- and I think we need to be careful. 

Correct me if I am wrong here, but aren't you basically just saying that we should allow fear of unjust persecution limit how we exercise our First Amendment rights? Stay in the closet so you won't get hurt?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

25 minutes ago, mererdog said:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but aren't you basically just saying that we should allow fear of unjust persecution limit how we exercise our First Amendment rights? Stay in the closet so you won't get hurt?

 

No.  I'm saying that an "earned degree" -- that stinks of fraud -- is a bomb.  It can go off at any time and have serious consequences.  It is legal for the ULC to sell us their  Ph.D.  If we are foolish enough to use it, the church won't face the consequences.  We will.  

 

An additional observation.  In the event of such a problem, old Kirby would have jumped into it.  I am convinced that Andre will not get involved, no matter what.  

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Key]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

No.  I'm saying that an "earned degree" -- that stinks of fraud -- is a bomb.  It can go off at any time and have serious consequences.  It is legal for the ULC to sell us their  Ph.D.  If we are foolish enough to use it, the church won't face the consequences.  We will.  

 

An additional observation.  In the event of such a problem, old Kirby would have jumped into it.  I am convinced that Andre will not get involved, no matter what.  

 

 

 

And what brings you to that opinion of Andre? Just curious. I don't know the family very well.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

36 minutes ago, Key said:

And what brings you to that opinion of Andre? Just curious. I don't know the family very well.

 

A few years back, there was a members push to resume the October conventions.  Andre made it clear that it was up to the members to put together a convention.  

 

I might add, if you visit the ULCHQ site; they are still looking forward to the 2006 convention.  This board has life in it.  As for HQ -- it's like dancing with a corpse.  

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevTom]

I wonder if ULC would be at all interested in developing real coursework and legitimacy for the "earned degrees"? Would ULC be interested in developing real programs with real degrees and applying for accreditation with one of the recognized accrediting bodies? Would that be a monumental task with which ULC would not want to ascribe to? It seems taking that course would help resolve some of the legal issues with ministerial accreditation for us as well in states that do not recognize us.

[Key]

2 hours ago, RevTom said:

I wonder if ULC would be at all interested in developing real coursework and legitimacy for the "earned degrees"? Would ULC be interested in developing real programs with real degrees and applying for accreditation with one of the recognized accrediting bodies? Would that be a monumental task with which ULC would not want to ascribe to? It seems taking that course would help resolve some of the legal issues with ministerial accreditation for us as well in states that do not recognize us.

We are supposedly recognized to officiate in all 50 states. There are just some hurdles to jump in some to do so.

As for the development of "real" programs for "real" degrees, that would require a much larger budget and staff than I think our "little" organization has.

Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.

[Key]

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

A few years back, there was a members push to resume the October conventions.  Andre made it clear that it was up to the members to put together a convention.  

 

I might add, if you visit the ULCHQ site; they are still looking forward to the 2006 convention.  This board has life in it.  As for HQ -- it's like dancing with a corpse.  

 

 

Yeah, I always get the impression of hearing crickets when I see the home page. Doesn't seem to have changed much, if at all, since I was ordained.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

24 minutes ago, Key said:

Yeah, I always get the impression of hearing crickets when I see the home page. Doesn't seem to have changed much, if at all, since I was ordained.

 

 

When I still thought a convention might be possible, I located the Modesto Chamber of Commerce.  They sent me some promotional material about Modesto -- including a list of the local churches.  ULC was not on the list.  The ULC Mother Church not on the Modesto Chamber of Commerce list?  That's some serious indifference.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

39 minutes ago, Key said:

We are supposedly recognized to officiate in all 50 states. There are just some hurdles to jump in some to do so.

As for the development of "real" programs for "real" degrees, that would require a much larger budget and staff than I think our "little" organization has.

Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.

 

No.  You're not wrong.  They would have to start from the ground up.  It's not going to happen.  

 

The ordinations and the honorary D.D.s are court tested.  Beyond that -- caution.  You don't want to be the one who makes history.  

 

 

[RevTom]

28 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

No.  You're not wrong.  They would have to start from the ground up.  It's not going to happen.  

 

The ordinations and the honorary D.D.s are court tested.  Beyond that -- caution.  You don't want to be the one who makes history.  

 

 

Realistically speaking, accredited degrees are ridiculously easy to get in some schools, especially online. They are mostly open book exams, and this takes some of the value away from them. It is a matter of what you put into your field of study and self research that will make the difference in your field.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

48 minutes ago, RevTom said:

Realistically speaking, accredited degrees are ridiculously easy to get in some schools, especially online. They are mostly open book exams, and this takes some of the value away from them. It is a matter of what you put into your field of study and self research that will make the difference in your field.

 

Please -- some examples.  I would like to know what you think of as being ridiculously easy.  You did say, accredited?

[RevTom]

40 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Please -- some examples.  I would like to know what you think of as being ridiculously easy.  You did say, accredited?

Off the top of my head, I will cite a school I went to online- nothing to do with theological studies, but I have seen that as well, and will hunt for them. It has been a while since I looked into online degrees, but I get the spiels form various institutions all the time in my email. Cleveland Institute of Electronics is the online school I took lessons from online. They do have an extensive study program, and have one of the best reputations, but still, I found the coursework to be pretty easy, although very intensive and involved. Grace Bible College is one of the schools I have been recommended to, and they supposedly are accredited by HLC and ABHE.  Trinity College of The Bible and Wesley Seminary are others.