Liberal Christianity 2

[Coolhand]

.

Really?

That's what 6,000,000 Jews were supposed to do?

"Pray in Jesus' name"???

Are you SERIOUS???

And they died "because they didn't"???

That can't be right.

Oh, and I think that they "passed the fasting test",

what with being "slowly starved to death".

Well, we can do a survey and find out which religions encourage us to war with these unseen forces. It appears to me that only Jesus has given us the authority to carry out this battle, and only through His name are we supposed to do battle. Am I correct?

[Coolhand]

God would not only be at fault for not insulating, but for infecting a pristine system himself. Yes it seems that God's desire was for man to make choices and first God had to create an alternative choice before that could happen.

This anthropocentric outlook seems very arrogant and egoic to me. To think that the whole Universe exists just for we humans and the whole celestial spiritual realm fights over us and our salvation seems ridiculous to me.

Coincidentally, I see your position as anthropocentric in that the focus is on man and not on God. It is God that equips us to make the right choices and actually fights for us when we submit to Him. To assume we can do it without God or on our own is just pending disaster.

The story starts off with evil already in existence. We do not have the answer to why it is there or why is allowed to exist. That question is almost irrelevant though being that God has made a way for us to overcome evil and all we have to do is go along with His program. He makes it real simple.

[RevRainbow]

It is interesting that you choose to characterize God's love as agape love; and you choose the highly "Christianized" version of agape love which is that of unconditional love. Agape is a Greek word. Ah'hava is the Hebrew word for which the Greek word agape is substituted. Ah'hava describes the deep, committed, and sacrificial love between a husband and a wife, not an unconditional love. Reading the Hebrew Scriptures you find out quickly that God's love is indeed conditional.

So the deep, committed and sacrificial love between a husband and wife requires what condition? Do what I say or I wont love you deep, committed and sacrificial?

I would argue to you and others that you should evaluate whether you could be being led astray by a spirit that is other than God. And due to the subjective nature of your religious experience, you have nothing to measure against to see if you are being led astray or not; you only have a feeling and emotion.

I for one measure my beliefs/convictions based on the same bible you do. I have read it taught it and studied it for almost 40 years.

I would also argue that the graveyards and prisons are full of people who have acted solely on feeling and emotion.

A poor analogy, my brother. The graveyards and prisons are also full of those who stood by the same convictions you and I do.

How would you answer those two arguments?

By asking you, brother, if you have a difficulty in accepting unconditional love.

I answered in defense of Fawzo for I too believe God's love is unconditional and therefore am an "other" as you describe. There are conditions for Him answering prayer and for blessings, but the Love is unconditional, deep, committed and sacrificial, to say the least.

[Coolhand]

It is not only feelings and emotions which give me the conviction I have. The knowledge showed me that the Bible wasn't the inerrant word of God has been verified in more ways then I can count.

Like what?

[Coolhand]

I answered in defense of Fawzo for I too believe God's love is unconditional and therefore am an "other" as you describe. There are conditions for Him answering prayer and for blessings, but the Love is unconditional, deep, committed and sacrificial, to say the least.

Ok, so then you have a problem because how can an unconditionally loving God carryout judgment? Specifically that of the eternal lake of fire? Does that go like this: "I love you SO MUCH and unconditionally that I will watch you fry for ever for rejecting me." Is that how that goes Rainbow? Or is there no lake of fire?

[Bro. Hex]

Well, we can do a survey and find out which religions encourage us to war with these unseen forces.

It appears to me that only Jesus has given us the authority to carry out this battle, a

nd only through His name are we supposed to do battle.

Am I correct?

I will answer your question

after you answer three of mine

that I have already asked you:

(1) That's what 6,000,000 Jews were supposed to do..."Pray in Jesus' name"???

(2) Are you SERIOUS???

(3) And they died "because they didn't"???

Edited June 27, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Coolhand]

I will answer your question

after you answer three of mine

that I have already asked you:

(1) That's what 6,000,000 Jews were supposed to do..."Pray in Jesus' name"???

(2) Are you SERIOUS???

(3) And they died "because they didn't"???

Unfortunatly, yes. Again, Jesus Christ is the only one through which we have a chance to overcome the destruction that is aimed at us. Show me another way; and ignoring it or not addressing it (which is the route of liberal Christianity and all other religions as I understand them) is not another way.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Coolhand

[RevRainbow]

Ok, so then you have a problem because how can an unconditionally loving God carryout judgment? Specifically that of the eternal lake of fire? Does that go like this: "I love you SO MUCH and unconditionally that I will watch you fry for ever for rejecting me." Is that how that goes Rainbow? Or is there no lake of fire?

Cool, you always answer questions with questions. You have not answered mine: what is the condition set for Ah'hava love? And, do you have a difficulty in accepting unconditional love?. Before I answer yours again, I ask you, what about the guys that had Jesus crucified. When Jesus said to His Father, "Forgive them..." were they unconditionally forgiven or will they fry too?

[Coolhand]

Cool, you always answer questions with questions. You have not answered mine: what is the condition set for Ah'hava love? And, do you have a difficulty in accepting unconditional love?. Before I answer yours again, I ask you, what about the guys that had Jesus crucified. When Jesus said to His Father, "Forgive them..." were they unconditionally forgiven or will they fry too?

Ah'hava is the love which exisits between a husband and a wife. It's not that there are specific conditions to it, but that it is not unconditional. Unconditional love was a foriegn concept until the the translation into Greek started.

The only difficulty I have with unconditional love is that it is not biblical, and creates confusion with people understanding that God does have a limit, and people can reach the end of that limit.

Regarding the guys that crucified Jesus, unless they repented of that sin, they will be judged for that sin.

[RevRainbow]

Ok, so then you have a problem because how can an unconditionally loving God carryout judgment? Specifically that of the eternal lake of fire? Does that go like this: "I love you SO MUCH and unconditionally that I will watch you fry for ever for rejecting me." Is that how that goes Rainbow? Or is there no lake of fire?

Okay, you answered my questions and I get a better picture now.

As far as a problem, I am aware there will be at least two judgments, a preliminary judgment of works which will be rewarded or burned up as worthless, and a final judgment. All I know about that final judgment, or anything else for that matter, is what I have read, been taught, and led by the Spirit of God to believe.

I believe in hell, because I am told Jesus was there and released the captives who were waiting for entry to heaven. The rest who were there, are still there awaiting judgment. There is a Lake of Fire, but exactly what that means I am not certain. Eternal punishment or total annihilation of the soul.But it is definitely seperation from God (which to me would be punishment enough!).

I do not see where unconditional love is not biblical, for God can still judge those that reject Him or hate Him or bring evil upon others in this life. But eternal suffering for the many? I guess its a matter of understanding the spiritual expressed in terms we can understand in our human minds. Let me give you a scenario. At the last judgment, as hoards of mankind were about to be cast into everlasting fire and torment, would you not plead with God to have mercy on their souls and shorten their sentence at least?

As an aside: If the bible is inerrant, how did the word agape get in there then?

Edited June 27, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Coolhand]

Okay, you answered my questions and I get a better picture now.

As far as a problem, I am aware there will be at least two judgments, a preliminary judgment of works which will be rewarded or burned up as worthless, and a final judgment. All I know about that final judgment, or anything else for that matter, is what I have read, been taught, and led by the Spirit of God to believe.

I believe in hell, because I am told Jesus was there and released the captives who were waiting for entry to heaven. The rest who were there, are still there awaiting judgment. There is a Lake of Fire, but exactly what that means I am not certain. Eternal punishment or total annihilation of the soul.But it is definitely seperation from God (which to me would be punishment enough!).

I do not see where unconditional love is not biblical, for God can still judge those that reject Him or hate Him or bring evil upon others in this life. But eternal suffering for the many? I guess its a matter of understanding the spiritual expressed in terms we can understand in our human minds. Let me give you a scenario. At the last judgment, as hoards of mankind were about to be cast into everlasting fire and torment, would you not plead with God to have mercy on their souls and shorten their sentence at least?

Of course; I pray for mercy for all men now.

I suppose the final judgment you are referring to is described here"

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Re 20:10-15.

16 Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name.

17 “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

4 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things,” says the Lord Almighty.

4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 “See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.”

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Mal 3:16-4:6.

12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wisea will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Da 12:1-3.

Eternal versus annihilation? How?

It's time for specifics; if there is another way, how?

[Bro. Hex]

Unfortunatly, yes. Again, Jesus Christ is the only one through which we have a chance to overcome the destruction that is aimed at us. Show me another way; and ignoring it or not addressing it (which is the route of liberal Christianity and all other religions as I understand them) is not another way.

Okay, you have now answered MY questions.

If I understand you correctly, you have answered thusly:

6,000,000 Jews died in the Holocaust "because they didn't pray to Jesus"

From my POV, you have just described an utterly despicable God;

a God thoroughly unworthy of either love or respect.

I'd sooner have a Golden Calf.

Now I will answer your question:

You said:

"It appears to me that only Jesus has given us the authority to carry out this battle,

and only through His name are we supposed to do battle.

Am I correct? "

No, you are not correct.

And the error is multifaceted:

(1) You do not need any external authority to strive against evil in this world.

(I assume that striving against evil is what you mean by "doing battle".

I find the "military rendering" a bit over-the-top and distorting of reality, but I think I get your general gist).

(2)If you were in need of external "Authority" (which you aren't) Jesus could not provide it.

God could, but Jesus could not.

(3)"Doing battle" in the name of God is what the Crusades were all about.

Killing people in the name of God. Is was an evil undertaking of plunder and territorial expansion,

and it was dressed up in holiness...which made it all the more evil.

(4)In the frame of reference that you suggest, "we" (the human race) is "at war"

with an invisible army of Evil Beings. This is nonsense. It borders on delusional.

And yes, I know that lots of people believe it to be true. That doesn't make it so.

There certainly IS evil in this world. Evil deeds are performed every day...by people just like us.

It may make people feel better to believe that Evil is "out there",

a being separate from ourselves.

But evil lies "within us"...just like goodness.

Good and evil are alive and well in our individual psyches.

In some of us one or the other tends to dominate.

But most of the time we are all a mixture of both.

WE are the Bogeyman.

WE are "the devil".

And we are the agents of Goodness in this world.

That is how God works...through us.

It may make you "feel good" to talk disparagingly about Liberal Christianity.

But I really think it only works to demonstrate otherwise.

One more thing: There IS no "lake of fire".

Edited June 27, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Coolhand]

As an aside: If the bible is inerrant, how did the word agape get in there then?

The word Agape itself is not a problem; however, the serious exegete will apply the definition to the word that the word meant at the time of the document's authorship; not what the word came to mean years later.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Coolhand

[RevRainbow]

It's late. Ill get back tomorrow. As far as another way, I didnt say that, I merely stated I didnt know what "the" way meant in its fullness of understanding. Niters.

[Coolhand]

Okay, you have now answered MY questions.

If I understand you correctly, you have answered thusly:

6,000,000 Jews died in the Holocaust "because they didn't pray to Jesus"

From my POV, you have just described an utterly despicable God;

a God thoroughly unworthy of either love or respect.

I'd sooner have a Golden Calf.

Now I will answer your question:

You said:

"It appears to me that only Jesus has given us the authority to carry out this battle,

and only through His name are we supposed to do battle.

Am I correct? "

No, you are not correct.

And the error is multifaceted:

(1) You do not need any external authority to strive against evil in this world.

(I assume that striving against evil is what you mean by "doing battle". I find the military rendering a bit over-the-top and distorting reality, but I think I get your general gist).

(2)If you were in need of external "Authority" (which you aren't) Jesus could not provide it. God could, but Jesus could not.

(3)"Doing battle" in the name of God is what the Crusades were all about.

Killing people in the name of God. Is was an evil undertaking of plunder and territorial expansion, and it was dressed up in holiness...which made it all the more evil.

(4)In the frame of reference that you suggest, "we" (the human race) is "at war"

with an invisible army of Evil Beings. This is nonsense. It borders on delusional.

And yes, I know that lots of people believe it to be true. That doesn't make it so.

There certainly IS evil in this world. Evil deeds are performed every day...by people just like us.

It may make people feel better to believe that Evil is "out there", a being separate from ourselves. But evil lies "within us"...just like goodness.

Good and evil are alive and well in our individual psyches. In some of us one or the other tends to dominate. But most of the time we are all a mixture of both. WE are the Bogeyman. WE are "the devil". And we are the agents of Goodness in this world. That is how God works...through us.

If you are right, why does evil still exist? Why havent we well intentioned humans been able to extinguish evil? If humans allowed 6 million Jews to be killed and could have stopped it without spiritual help and did not, does that not prove man is flawed?

Edited June 27, 2010 by Coolhand

[Bro. Hex]

If you are right, why does evil still exist?

What would make it "go away"?

WE are still here, so evil is still here.

and goodness is still here.

When man is gone evil will cease.

Evil is a necessary possibility so long as there is free will.

Why havent we well intentioned humans been able to extinguish evil?

Because we ARE NOT good, well-intentioned human beings.

We prefer to think we are "good people"...but we are both good and bad...inside.

If humans allowed 6 million Jews to be killed and could have stopped it without spiritual help and did not, does that not prove man is flawed?

Absolutely!

We ARE flawed.

We are what we are.

[Coolhand]

Absolutely!

We ARE flawed.

We are what we are.

What hope am I supposed to gain from that?

[Bro. Hex]

What hope am I supposed to gain from that?

Do you want hope, or do you want truth?

Actually neither one "can be handed to you".

You have to make hope.

you have to discover truth.

If neither of those options appeal to you,

you are not ready for the journey.

[Coolhand]

Do you want hope, or do you want truth?

Actually neither one "can be handed to you".

You have to make hope.

you have to discover truth.

If neither of those options appeal to you,

you are not ready for the journey.

The false dichotomy that you are asserting is that hope and truth do not coexist. Besides setting people free, the truth also gives hope.

[Tsukino_Rei]

If you are right, why does evil still exist? Why havent we well intentioned humans been able to extinguish evil? If humans allowed 6 million Jews to be killed and could have stopped it without spiritual help and did not, does that not prove man is flawed?

If being responsible for the death of 6 million Jews is what makes someone flawed, then I'm perfect. Also, it seems odd to me that the existence of imperfect beings would be proof of the existence of a perfect being. Rather, good and evil are human conceptualizations which speak only of the intention and/or result of human action.

Hexalpa's argument that hope and truth are created and discovered by ourselves is an accurate one, and it is not a question of co-existence, but of pre-existence. Hope and truth are not something that exist outside of each individual. We each are responsible to learn and study for ourselves, to process the information, internalize it, and through our life experiences turn wisdom into hope. If somebody else studies Physics and gains a Doctorate of Physics, even someone I know, I do not then by proxy become a Physicist.

If there existed a book that contained everything about the universe, it's contents would not exist as Truth, or Knowledge, or Hope until a human being picked it up and read it.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei