Liberal Christianity 2

[Pete]

What can I say, God hates idolatry.

Where did I insinuate that anyone who disagree's with me should be killed? That's absurd. Death was the penalty for breaking the first commandment in the old testament. Its biblical, so of course I agree with it. Do I want people to be killed? Of course not, and neither does God.

You said you see nothing wrong with the death penalty for none believing after I gave you a quote that says God recommended killing those who change their faith in OT times. The other thing that struck me was that the person the bible says is to kill none believers and is also recommending others do it in the OT, is also said to be agape with love.

I know you did not want to tackle some of the other quotes, like having to hack off ones wife's hand if she came to rescue you from an attacker and happened to hit the assailant in the private parts. Show her not pity it says.

Such so called righteous laws, I can do without, my friend..

Edited April 27, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

I didn't make that statement, God did. My agreeing with God's judgment means that I've never experienced his love?? I've been unable to find any verses to substantiate your observation? "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the Commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). Love is a 2-way street, the person who says that they know God but doesn't keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4). Odds are that if your worshiping a false God, you don't have much love for the real deal.

And what did Jesus tell you the commandments of God are?

What is the definition of Agape love (aka charity) as given in Corinthians?

What does the word "all" mean to you... some...most... all but one or two..a few?

What does the word "never" mean to you .... sometimes....often..every other sunday?

What exists that wasn't created by God? Is there another creator, if not then everything is God and was created by God?

When you love your neighbor in effect you are loving God. That is why Jesus said what you do to the least of these you do unto me.

Jesus came to do away with the barbaric practices that are outlined in the Law. It truly was a curse.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Fawzo

[Fawzo]

I wanted to add a note on the nice rosy picture Dan painted of slavery in the Bible. The worse example of OT barbarism is the verse where it states it is ok to beat and kill a slave as long as he lives and suffers for two days before he dies because "he is your property". That is just plain sick and twisted!!!!

The following is from http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

Slavery in the Bible

Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.

Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word "servant", "bondservant", or "manservant" instead of "slave" to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn't mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.

The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?

The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!

What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Edited April 28, 2010 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

You said you see nothing wrong with the death penalty for none believing after I gave you a quote that says God recommended killing those who change their faith in OT times. The other thing that struck me was that the person the bible says is to kill none believers and is also recommending others do it in the OT, is also said to be agape with love.

I know you did not want to tackle some of the other quotes, like having to hack off ones wife's hand if she came to rescue you from an attacker and happened to hit the assailant in the private parts. Show her not pity it says.

Such so called righteous laws, I can do without, my friend..

Perhaps I didn't articulate what I think very well? By law, I don't see anything wrong with the death penalty, but the penalty was changed by Christ; "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). So by law, we are all guilty and under a death sentence, but the price for our redemption was paid by the lamb of God. But Jesus didn't change the law, and I believe that those who reject him for other god's are still in danger of judgment.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 is concerned with the dignity of the individual male who in his circumcision bears in his body the sign of the covenant. The forbidden act shows contempt for the covenant. A wife grabbing an assailants genitals to protect her husband was a breech of the law because it defiled the sign of the covenant between God and Israel. Circumcision was an important sign at the time, significant to comprehending spiritual things. The passage isn't applicable to Christians (statute or punishment).

[Dan56]

And what did Jesus tell you the commandments of God are?

He said that all the laws hang on loving God and loving others. This means to me that if you love God, you won't worship other god's, and if you love your neighbor, you won't steal his stuff. In other words, Jesus reiterated all the laws in a concise way by saying that if you love God, you'll be obedient to all his laws. "Love is the fulfilling of the law" (Romans 13:9-10).

What is the definition of Agape love (aka charity) as given in Corinthians?

I don't believe God's love is unconditional, and there are many verses that substantiate this. His sacrifice was unconditional, but salvation isn't. What's one of the conditions? "He who has my commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves me." (John 14:21)

Jesus came to do away with the barbaric practices that are outlined in the Law. It truly was a curse. I agree, but its important to realize that without Jesus, the law is in full effect. The wrath of God will be poured-out on those who reject Jesus (Revelation).

[Fawzo]

Dan I think you are familar with the way most humans love where they create an image in their mind that either fullfills themself or mirrors themself.

When they meet someone or thing which does so they fall in love. When the person or thing doesn't match up with their image the image gets broken and love can turn to hate in some cases.

God's love isn't like this it is an energy which permeates the Universe and there are no expectations involved. Especially if God is Omniscient, then expectations do not exist as God has complete knowledge.

True love doesn't expect anything in return, it is constantly giving of itself freely.

Did the writers of Corinthians expect us to have a purer love than what it was possible for God to exhume?

Do you think it possible that the liberal Christians here and myself could be MORE LOVING AND COMPASSIONATE THAN GOD?!?!?!?!

Shouldn't God's love and compassion far exceed anything that our brothers and sisters here could possibly exhibit?

[Pete]

Perhaps I didn't articulate what I think very well? By law, I don't see anything wrong with the death penalty, but the penalty was changed by Christ; "He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5). So by law, we are all guilty and under a death sentence, but the price for our redemption was paid by the lamb of God. But Jesus didn't change the law, and I believe that those who reject him for other god's are still in danger of judgment.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 is concerned with the dignity of the individual male who in his circumcision bears in his body the sign of the covenant. The forbidden act shows contempt for the covenant. A wife grabbing an assailants genitals to protect her husband was a breech of the law because it defiled the sign of the covenant between God and Israel. Circumcision was an important sign at the time, significant to comprehending spiritual things. The passage isn't applicable to Christians (statute or punishment).

You said it again that you did not see anything wrong with the death penalty. I do not care that you said Jesus did away with it or not, what matters is you believe that this OT penalty was instructed by God.

I give you an example. Say we live in OT times and say your neighbor is in an abusive relationship and distressed to the point she seeks the support of someone else who makes her feel that she is loved. They get found out and the penalty was be stoned. Are you saying you would feell righteous to crush her skull with stones just because the law said so and the law is said to be of God..

I also do not care whether it says that the circumcision was an important sign, we are saying we should hack off her hand for trying to rescue you and in doing so struck your assailants private parts.

A gay man finds a love that fulfills him in a way that no other relationship ever has and you feel it would have been right to stone him in OT times.

A girl (the daughter of a priest) runs away from her over bearing father and turns to prostitution as the only way to survive and you would feel it right that she should be burned alive.

(I am not trying to make excuses for people but this is how in the real life things happen)

What bothers me is that you feel this is alright if we lived in OT times just because a book says it is and you do not see that there is any need to question that..

I also do not understand how you see the same God who would die for others and the cause of love rather than condemn, would makes such laws.

I also do not understand how it is that you do not see these laws as evil and are not of a loving God..

[Fawzo]

Do you think many children would be alive if we followed what the Bible says about disobedient children. I wonder how many of us here would have survived if society followed the barbaric dictates of the Bible. These laws are not the will of any omnisciet loving God, but rather the outgrowth of unsophisticated Iron Age men who feared for their own survival.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17

The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. -- Proverbs 30:17

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. -- 2 Kings 2:23-24

And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. -- Leviticus 26:29

And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters. -- Deuteronomy 28:53

And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend. -- Jeremiah 19:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9

Edited April 28, 2010 by Fawzo

[Pete]

I have mentioned some of those earlier but they are easy to find.

Here's a few more:-

Exodus 21:12

"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death". Do it matter whether it was an accident?

Leviticus 21:16-23

¹⁶ The LORD said to Moses, ¹⁷ "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. ¹⁸ No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; ¹⁹ no man with a crippled foot or hand, ²⁰ or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. ²¹ No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. ²² He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; ²³ yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy."

Leviticus 12:1-5

Quotes God as stating that a woman who has given birth to a boy is ritually unclean for 7 days. If the baby is a girl, the mother is unclean for 14 days. "If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..."

Leviticus 27:6

A child aged 1 month to five years of age was worth 5 shekels if a boy and 3 shekels if a girl. "And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver."

In Numbers 27:8-11,

Moses describes the rules of inheritance that God has stated. If a man dies, his son inherits the estate; his daughter gets nothing. Only if there is no son, will his daughter inherit. If there are no children, then the estate is given to the man's brothers; his sister(s) get nothing. If he had no brother, the estate goes to his nearest male relative. "...If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. And if he have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his father's brethren. And if his father have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family...."

Deuteronomy 21:10-13

describes how a soldier can force a woman captive to marry him without regard for her wishes. "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife."

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

requires that a virgin woman who has been raped must marry her attacker, no matter what her feelings are towards the rapist. "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife...."

See:- for more:- http://www.religious...rg/ofe_bibl.htm

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

Judges, Chapter 11:30

And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."

36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."

38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

What God would want this? I find it all very scary and unloving and unjust..

Edited April 28, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

Judges, Chapter 11:30

And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."

36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."

38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

What God would want this? I find it all very scary and unloving and unjust..

To be fair in the Jephthah story no where does God encourage nor discourage this lunatics actions.

I think from the Abraham story (which is sick as well) people expect God to supply an alternative sacrifice.

[Fawzo]

I wonder if we had a mock trial and tried God for Nazi War crimes how that would work out?

What would his plea be to begin the trial?

[Kingfisher]

It should be of consequence whether Jesus resurrected, because if he didn't, then neither will we.

This is a curious assumption. I know the scripture, but it remains an illogical conclusion. Is it not possible that God will raise whomever He pleases? Or did you miss that message in Job?

I wonder if we had a mock trial and tried God for Nazi War crimes how that would work out?

What would his plea be to begin the trial?

Stockholm Syndrome?

[Fawzo]

Stockholm Syndrome?

lol That might be the plea issued by his followers after the Fundalmentalist Christian God is found guilty and beheaded for crimes against all sentient beings, but I don't think he could make that claim himself. Who is holding him hostage, another portion of himself the Bible does not dare speak of the Holy Terrorist?

[Pete]

To be fair in the Jephthah story no where does God encourage nor discourage this lunatics actions.

I think from the Abraham story (which is sick as well) people expect God to supply an alternative sacrifice.

True. However, it just goes to show how dangerous it was be related to some people in those days and the mindset of their times. Something I do not see any perfection in.

I wonder just how many people sacrificed their own children to this nonsense (IMO). I do not believe Abraham attempt to sacrifice Isaac was the only example of this.

See:-

Exodus 13:2 the Lord said

"Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." *

Exodus 22:28-30 (NIV)

²⁸ "Do not blaspheme God or curse the ruler of your people.

²⁹ "Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. "You must give me the firstborn of your sons. ³⁰ Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day".

*although later versions have changed the meaning of consecrate from sacrifice to "redeem" but it seems Leviticus does not agree with this:-

Leviticus 27:28-29,

the Lord allows for no redemptions. "Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death."

[Dan56]

God's love isn't like this it is an energy which permeates the Universe and there are no expectations involved. Especially if God is Omniscient, then expectations do not exist as God has complete knowledge.

Shouldn't God's love and compassion far exceed anything that our brothers and sisters here could possibly exhibit?

God's love isn't what's being questioned, its our love, or the lack thereof, that is being tested. God's love is freely given, but it has to be received to be of consequence. Perfect love cannot be polluted, it is righteous and sin cannot dwell with it. God is all knowledgeable, but he expects and requires us to be faithful to what he reveals to us. In other words, I believe God's love is conditional. God gave us laws because he loves us, and when we obey his laws, it demonstrate that we love him.

You said it again that you did not see anything wrong with the death penalty. I do not care that you said Jesus did away with it or not, what matters is you believe that this OT penalty was instructed by God.

I also do not understand how it is that you do not see these laws as evil and are not of a loving God..

There is nothing wrong with the death penalty, because it was instructed by God. From the beginning, death was the result of us choosing evil rather than good. Satan is the Destroyer, who inspires the spirit of punishment, not God. I look at it from the prospective that God's laws are what's best for us, we benefit from our obedience to the law, and we are rewarded with God's blessings when we adhere to the law. God's laws are just, perfect and holy, and cannot be improved by "one jot or tittle". God challenges and chastens, but he also loves, comforts and forgives us. But sadly, most of the world has concluded that Lucifer was right and that we are better off reasoning which truths are good for us, after-all, without the law, lawlessness cannot exist. When we rebel against God, we rebel against good, which demonstrates that we prefer sin, which is death. The question isn't whether God is too harsh, but why he doesn't kill us all? God's patience is beyond my comprehension. "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live" (Ezekiel 33:11)

Regarding Judges 11:30-40, It doesn't explicitly say that Jephthah killed his daughter. Jephthah carried out his vow by dedicating his daughter to a life of perpetual virginity, that was the sacrifice. Human sacrifice was contrary to the Law of Moses and God would never accept it (Leviticus 18:21 & 20:2-5). Whatever or whoever came out of Jephthah's door would be offered to God, an animal would be a burnt offering and a human would be dedicated to the Lord. The indication that the daughter went into the mountains to bewailed her virginity for 2 months and knew no man supports celibacy.

[Dan56]

This is a curious assumption. I know the scripture, but it remains an illogical conclusion. Is it not possible that God will raise whomever He pleases? Or did you miss that message in Job?

Its a very logical conclusion (1 Corinthians 15:17). If it didn't please God to raise Jesus, none of us have a shot in the dark. I believe God told Job that he has mercy on whomever he pleases.

[Pete]

God's love isn't what's being questioned, its our love, or the lack thereof, that is being tested. God's love is freely given, but it has to be received to be of consequence. Perfect love cannot be polluted, it is righteous and sin cannot dwell with it. God is all knowledgeable, but he expects and requires us to be faithful to what he reveals to us. In other words, I believe God's love is conditional. God gave us laws because he loves us, and when we obey his laws, it demonstrate that we love him.

There is nothing wrong with the death penalty, because it was instructed by God. From the beginning, death was the result of us choosing evil rather than good. Satan is the Destroyer, who inspires the spirit of punishment, not God. I look at it from the prospective that God's laws are what's best for us, we benefit from our obedience to the law, and we are rewarded with God's blessings when we adhere to the law. God's laws are just, perfect and holy, and cannot be improved by "one jot or tittle". God challenges and chastens, but he also loves, comforts and forgives us. But sadly, most of the world has concluded that Lucifer was right and that we are better off reasoning which truths are good for us, after-all, without the law, lawlessness cannot exist. When we rebel against God, we rebel against good, which demonstrates that we prefer sin, which is death. The question isn't whether God is too harsh, but why he doesn't kill us all? God's patience is beyond my comprehension. "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live" (Ezekiel 33:11)

Regarding Judges 11:30-40, It doesn't explicitly say that Jephthah killed his daughter. Jephthah carried out his vow by dedicating his daughter to a life of perpetual virginity, that was the sacrifice. Human sacrifice was contrary to the Law of Moses and God would never accept it (Leviticus 18:21 & 20:2-5). Whatever or whoever came out of Jephthah's door would be offered to God, an animal would be a burnt offering and a human would be dedicated to the Lord. The indication that the daughter went into the mountains to bewailed her virginity for 2 months and knew no man supports celibacy.

Pardon me Dan but it says:-

Judges, Chapter 11:30

And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."

36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."

38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

[Kingfisher]

I don't think he could make that claim himself. Who is holding him hostage, another portion of himself the Bible does not dare speak of the Holy Terrorist?

Nietzsche! However, I was thinking of the inverse argument. I just hadn't realized there was a name for it now.. Lima Syndrome. The point is that God isn't a bad Dude, He just spent too much time hanging around us nutters. Poor God.

[Fawzo]

Regarding Judges 11:30-40, It doesn't explicitly say that Jephthah killed his daughter. Jephthah carried out his vow by dedicating his daughter to a life of perpetual virginity, that was the sacrifice. Human sacrifice was contrary to the Law of Moses and God would never accept it (Leviticus 18:21 & 20:2-5). Whatever or whoever came out of Jephthah's door would be offered to God, an animal would be a burnt offering and a human would be dedicated to the Lord. The indication that the daughter went into the mountains to bewailed her virginity for 2 months and knew no man supports celibacy.

I think the last verse leaves little doubt he killed her "And it was a custom in Israel, 40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year." Judges 11:39-40 (KJV)

Why would all the daughters of Israel go out 4 days out of year to lament someone who was dedicated to the temple.

[Dan56]

Pardon me Dan but it says:-

"You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which he hates they have done to their god; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods" (Deuteronomy 12:31). Anyone who would have done these things in Israel would face the death penalty. Human sacrifice were an abomination before God.

In keeping with the thrust of the context;

"Then she said to her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone for two months, that I may go and wander on the mountains and bewail my virginity, my friends and I" (Judges 11:37) She was sad over the fact that she would never marry, not that she was going to die.

"She returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man" (Judges 11:39). What was the result of her father doing his vow? "she knew no man".

Why would all the daughters of Israel go out 4 days out of year to lament someone who was dedicated to the temple.

"Lament" usually means to mourn or wail, but "lament" as used in verse 40 is; The idea of attributing honor, to ascribe praise, ie; celebrate, commemorate (Strong's Concordance #8567). People don't usually celebrate death, they mourn death and express grief or sorrow.