Church Armories

[Raven's Trikes]

I didn't realize that. I'll have to look into it some more. My statement was, of course, based on my memory where I do not remember any spot on the 4473 where you can put an organizations name as opposed to an individuals. I do realize that once an individual is cleared by the FBI using the 4473, the firearm can usually be sold to anyone, or any organization, in a private sale occurring solely within the state.

Bears more checking into.

I shall proceed with caution

[mdtaylor]

I shall proceed with caution

Of course, I was speaking solely about the transfer of sale under the FEDERAL regulations, not individual states. Knowing your state laws is always a good thing.

[mpi]

to buy an NFA item, or SBR, SBS, Suppressor, FA etc you need, as a private individual, the signature or your local CLEO. to get around that requirement you can form a trust or a corporation and no longer have to bother with a recalcitrant or obstructionist CLEO. they no longer have any input at all.

say you want to buy a MG42 to plink with on weekends{hahahaha} you would need to file the BATFE paperwork, and get the CLEO signature, say the local CLEO is anti gun, you might be SOL. Instead you form a limited trust or corp, now you don't have to get that signature and the CLEO can't stand in your way no matter how much of an ass he is!

[BrDevon]

AFAIK I'm NTAFU, but IDHAC what language the last post is in. WOTH, that one. But I guess, I was LW1EO.

TLTG, I Guess.

TYA

SKSK

[Stormson]

To do it under ULC, I think you would need more aproval than your fellow board members.

Wow, I have a hard time imagining religious guns.

With the current trend against any and all religions other then Obamaism, ESPECIALLY against the Christians, and for economic reasons, covered up as religious, the Muslims, its becoming harder each day for me to imagine one without them...

Our situation is entirely different than Waco, or Ruby Ridge, or MOVE or whatever; and it has nothing to do with “religious guns”. I did some research into those groups and what I call “religious disasters”.

They where not disasters.... They where ideological and religiously motivated MURDERS, carried out by vehemently anti-gun organizations...

The media would have you believe that law abiding, civilian gun owners are "evil".... But I have yet to see a group of them burning men, women and children alive inside of a building they had surrounded and laid siege to...

Frankly, the further "off track" our political system goes, the more need I see for just such a thing as Church Armories..

Edited June 18, 2009 by Stormson

[Raven's Trikes]

AFAIK I'm NTAFU, but IDHAC what language the last post is in. WOTH, that one. But I guess, I was LW1EO.

TLTG, I Guess.

TYA

SKSK

I'm sorry, I not cool enough on the computer to have clue what your talking about. But I know your a nice guy, so I assume your not making too much fun of me?

to buy an NFA item, or SBR, SBS, Suppressor, FA etc you need, as a private individual, the signature or your local CLEO. to get around that requirement you can form a trust or a corporation and no longer have to bother with a recalcitrant or obstructionist CLEO. they no longer have any input at all.

say you want to buy a MG42 to plink with on weekends{hahahaha} you would need to file the BATFE paperwork, and get the CLEO signature, say the local CLEO is anti gun, you might be SOL. Instead you form a limited trust or corp, now you don't have to get that signature and the CLEO can't stand in your way no matter how much of an ass he is!

You may be on something here, I just need someone to crack the codes for me, so I know what your talking about. Thanks my friend.

[Raven's Trikes]

With the current trend against any and all religions other then Obamaism, ESPECIALLY against the Christians, and for economic reasons, covered up as religious, the Muslims, its becoming harder each day for me to imagine one without them...

They where not disasters.... They where ideological and religiously motivated MURDERS, carried out by vehemently anti-gun organizations...

The media would have you believe that law abiding, civilian gun owners are "evil".... But I have yet to see a group of them burning men, women and children alive inside of a building they had surrounded and laid siege to...

Frankly, the further "off track" our political system goes, the more need I see for just such a thing as Church Armories..

While I agree with you Stormy...I should be clear that we never set out to start an armory, it came to us by way of the death of one of our members. Now, of course red flags will go up everywhere because we have all those guns...my job, as captain of this ship, is to guide us through these waters without anyone getting hurt...of course it already too late for that, one person is dead( Bobby) and another person has been seriously injured and scared for life (me)...so I don't know, I just want to handle this situation as best I can.

[mpi]

ahhh, such philistines.......

I'll translate

NFA =national firearms act federal gunlaw passed so we couldn't shoot the last kennedy [that's just humor so don't throw rocks]

sbr = short barreled rifle

SBS = short barreled shotgun

suppressor= "silencer"

CLeo = chief law enforcement officer [DA, sheriff police chief, etc]

FA = full auto [machinegun, IE that mg 42 plinker]

BATFE = bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives [federal gun police, sounds like a convenience store eh?]

SOL= ** out of luck [self explanatory]

Edited June 19, 2009 by mpi

[BrDevon]

AFAIK I'm NTAFU, but IDHAC what language the last post is in. WOTH, that one. But I guess, I was LW1EO.

TLTG, I Guess.

TYA

SKSK

Translation:

As Far As I Know, I'm Not Totally All Fouled Up, but I Don't Have A Clue what language that last post is in.

Went Over The Head, that one. But I guess I was Listening With (only) 1 Eye Open.

Too Late, Train Gone, I guess.

(I will now) Stop Keying

I wasn't busting on ya, just showing how when you don't know the abbreviations, it's tough to know what someone's trying to say. If I was really trying to be evil, I could have just typed it all in machine shorthand When I had better hearing, I used to transcribe lectures and take notes for a student who was deaf. I had a Tandy 100 portable and using a combination of abbreviations and the international symbols and alphabets to represent phonemes, I used to be able to transliterate at just over words per minute. The teaching staff were amazed that I could make sense out of a string of seemingly random symbols, but my system made sense to me. I still have the machine, and every so often if I'm doing some writing and want to get my thoughts quickly, I still use the thing. But as I am losing my hearing again, I find that I can type nearly as quickly as I speak if I am typing my own thoughts. Comes from typing chats and phone calls.

[mdtaylor]

The "armory" of over 40 guns included antiques and guns that are not in firing condition. on the other hand, it also includes some serious guns. Our beloved Bobby was an avid gun collector; its such a shame he got hooked on prescription pills and just got depressed. He had shot a hole through his roof a year before, and Dale, his brother and board member with the B.U.C. had to help patch the hole.

It sounds like your friend did not leave an ARMORY at all. That my just be your interpretation. What he left you was a fine collection of vintage firearms, plus a few working guns.

What you believe to be weapons take to your local LEO officer and donate them to be destroyed. The rest keep or sell at your choice with a clear conscious and no laws anywhere near being broken. He left you these thing because they have value and wanted the church to have the donation.

[mpi]

DO NOT take them to local LEO, as they won't be destroyed no matter what they tell you, you can legally dispose of them. you can sell them to somebody that will appreciate them. no matter what they are the executor of the estate can dispose of and posses them. i recently had to assist the executor of an estate here in pa who had the local sheriff try to "confiscate" [read steal] some weapons by giving bad advice and unlawful orders to an executor. It took some seriously sharp words to save that situation!

lcal leo's who get this stuff almost always keep it and then consider it free guns or sell them for a profit out the back door to friends! often illegally! cops often don't know anything about firearms law and will get themselves and you into plenty of trouble.

if i can be of assistance you can PM me and get my contact info and i will help you as best i can. at least we can clear up some of your doubts!

[LykosTemple]

To all:

Our residence (which is, I guess, now a church) doesn’t have a single gun.

Having said that, I should point out that we are not unarmed. We have a large collection (all working) of bows, swords, slings, axes, knives, and razor sharp hunting arrows. We used to have a compound crossbow, but that was stolen out of the storage space we used to have (it was among three rooms filled with antiques, and they [whomever] simply stole everything on that floor of the storage facility. We were simply caught in the fall out).

My wife and I were once members of a medieval reenactment group; we were both fighters. The sharp stuff is mostly for collecting, but I don’t “believe” in fake weaponry, unless it’s part of a costume.

On top of that, we also have fencing foils, fencing masks (2), wooden swords (bokan/Japanese), and a large collection of books. Why? Well, I actually think that the greatest weapon any person has is their brain… and I haven’t stopped learning yet (the day I do is when I lay down, pull a rock onto my hole, and give up).

So: I suppose we’re a church with an armory (but I don’t really think the BATF is all that concerned…. Yet.

[mpi]

you sound like a former SCA household? me too, although the wife is still a member and active, me no so much.

[Raven's Trikes]

DO NOT take them to local LEO, as they won't be destroyed no matter what they tell you, you can legally dispose of them. you can sell them to somebody that will appreciate them. no matter what they are the executor of the estate can dispose of and posses them. i recently had to assist the executor of an estate here in pa who had the local sheriff try to "confiscate" [read steal] some weapons by giving bad advice and unlawful orders to an executor. It took some seriously sharp words to save that situation!

lcal leo's who get this stuff almost always keep it and then consider it free guns or sell them for a profit out the back door to friends! often illegally! cops often don't know anything about firearms law and will get themselves and you into plenty of trouble.

if i can be of assistance you can PM me and get my contact info and i will help you as best i can. at least we can clear up some of your doubts!

thank you, I would rather not go into much more detail publicly.

[mpi]

good idea!

[KevinM.]

with the exception of the felon in possession part, mdtaylor's statement about gun laws is incorrect. organizations CAN own guns. as a matter of fact a trust or corporation is the easiest way to own some classes of firearms.

Can you please tell us more or tell us where we can find this info?

[KevinM.]

ahhh, such philistines.......

I'll translate

NFA =national firearms act federal gunlaw passed so we couldn't shoot the last kennedy [that's just humor so don't throw rocks]

sbr = short barreled rifle

SBS = short barreled shotgun

suppressor= "silencer"

CLeo = chief law enforcement officer [DA, sheriff police chief, etc]

FA = full auto [machinegun, IE that mg 42 plinker]

BATFE = bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives [federal gun police, sounds like a convenience store eh?]

SOL= ** out of luck [self explanatory]

Wiat a mintue ar you saying there is a lgal way for somone to own a silencer or or a full auto i thought only a ffl could do these things please tell us more on how to do this

[Yael - HaMorit]

Our situation is entirely different than Waco, or Ruby Ridge, or MOVE or whatever; and it has nothing to do with “religious guns”. I did some research into those groups and what I call “religious disasters”.

The main part of my question in the original post was “Aside from being under lock and key, what are the restrictions for a organization keeping an armory?”

Theres a reason why the Wells Fargo trucks are armor plated and the guys who carry the money are armed. They are just there to do a job, not to police or judge or enforce, and the money they carry isn't theirs; but if they weren't armed, people would rob them everyday...so I guess its about having something people want and wanting to protect it.

Edited to add: that the B.U.C. is, and has always been in full cooperation with all Federal, State, and Local authorities.

In this day and age, if I were a religious organization, I would not entertain the idea of firearms beinig a part of the organization. Just too much can be taken in the wrong perception. I don't understand even why you have asked the question; are you trying to put together a summer church retreat for men? Were you thinking of some way of using the donated guns for the church retreat? For law enforcement, any organization that has an "armory" raises red flags. Another thing...your intentions may be honorable but what if someone in your organization begins to turn the motivation. Having lived in Central Texas and been around several Branch Davidians, most of them were very nice people but a few were really scarey. One Branch Davidian who always visited our synagogue (after the standoff with the government), told me that he was honestly shocked about the situation...said that it only took a few people to spoil the whole setup they had...said those few people are the ones who started the stockpiling and doomsday rhetoric that eventually raised the ire of authorities...said he chose to leave as things began to unravel. While this man remained christian messianic in his thinking, he was a kind soul but now for his remaining years, he will be on "the list" of interesting parties.

I am inclined to agree with others here...better dispose of them via a legal means to raise funds for the church. Keeps you in good standing within the law. I do know there are organizations that collect guns, melt them down, and make farm equipment for third world countries. Watched a special about the group about 5 years ago so they may or may not be around anymore.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Yael - HaMorit

[mpi]

yes you can own these things, just fill out the paperwork and pay the proper tax! go to the BATFE web page and they lay it all out for you. they tend top be expensive and so that's why i don't have any right now.

[Raven's Trikes]

everything is in private ownership, no guns are in the church's name..nor will they be....I've gathered enough to see that we don't want to go down that road...

doesn't make them go away, just makes them none of our business. I brought the thread up, honestly, because this is about the only place I could think of to discuss ministers with guns..lol...its not your everyday question. I still don't have all the answers as to setting up a real armory, and I'd still love to discuss the subject, but as far as the BUC and ULC are concerened, there are no guns.