The Craft Of The Wise

[Himitsuko]

Okay, so you've read so many Wiccan texts you have the first chapter memorized. You know all about the rules of manipulation and control. You and Karma and close buddies (most of the time.) Your spells work pretty consistantly, and you may even have a stable group that you work well with-though lets face it, more of us are solitary than would like to be. But your at that threshhold, that plateau, where you have control of yourself and have learned that by controling yourself, you really can control your environment and thus your personal reality. And now...for something completely different.

The fundamentals are not only learned, they are actually applied, but that calling still tugs at you and you know there's more to do, more to see, more to experience, and much more work to be done. You actually are beginning to understand your personal role in your little corner of the universe and now that corner is feeling a little cramped.

Where do you go from here? What's the next step?

Someone on the forum once commented that they had always considered Wicca to be an ego stroke for self-centered people trying to garner power, or at least fool themselves in believing they had it. We the intermediate and advanced witches know that nothing could be further from the truth. Sure that may be where it starts for some of the younger ones, but we're years past that.

Now that you've claimed your rightful place as an authority in your world, what will you do with this power? Where will you go? What talents and abilities have blossomed and what's still just beyond the horizon?

All who are priests and priestesses of the God and Goddess are welcome to chime in with lessons recently learned and the challenges that now lie ahead. Lean on eachother to find the missing peice of your personal puzzle.

[Fawzo]

There is a difference between using magic and being a mystic.

People who use magic are trying to get the powers that be to bend to their own personal desires and whims while mystics are in love with the divine and only wish to enjoy experiencing the divine as is.

Just thought I would point that out. I've sat in on many a Wiccan discussion where the two have been used interchangeably erroneously.

[SalemWitchChild]

There is a difference between using magic and being a mystic.

People who use magic are trying to get the powers that be to bend to their own personal desires and whims while mystics are in love with the divine and only wish to enjoy experiencing the divine as is.

Just thought I would point that out. I've sat in on many a Wiccan discussion where the two have been used interchangeably erroneously.

Fawzo is quite right.

There are those that have the power and an itch to use it. These person(s) usually end up contriving reasons to do spells and eventually end up spiraling out of control.

And there are those that have the power and no desire to use it. Only a need when it arrises. And like Fawzo said, these persons tend to have more reverence for the divine and nature.

Just remember, that no matter how much you learn, there is always more.

Edited October 9, 2008 by SalemWitchChild

[Himitsuko]

But you can be both a witch and a mystic. I know that because I am one. My ultimate desire is not for power for but for the greatest of Love's, the Divine spirit. In that pursuit I have earned a degree of dominion over my own reality. The use of that power is magick in my case and magick itself is not at all selfish. You say erroneously, I say that to interchange the words is only erroneous if we consider each to be mutually exclusive and in many cases they are not.

The desire to do more is in fact the compulsion of love to keep loving and do so so in more and more effective ways. There is nothing wrong inherantly with power. We need power, personal and social, if we are to bring together the necessary resources to help our communities. Mystics are in no way prohibited from engaging in this activity and witches are in no way incapable of acting from love alone.

But that is an elementary discussion for those not fully familiar with the terms used in such discussions and our attempt here is to move past that and into more meaningful discussion of personal experience.

"People who use magic are trying to get the powers that be to bend to their own personal desires..."-Fawzo

I take exception to this statement. It only applies to some people and generally only to initiates. You cannot move forward in the universe if your motivations are purely selfish. My personal desire is to make my corner of the universe better with every opportunity that presents itself. I am only a brief steward of those energies, not a master. Any advanced witch will likely say the same.

Edited October 9, 2008 by Himitsuko

[Rev.Fred]

But you can be both a witch and a mystic. I know that because I am one. My ultimate desire is not for power for but for the greatest of Love's, the Divine spirit. In that pursuit I have earned a degree of dominion over my own reality. The use of that power is magick in my case and magick itself is not at all selfish. You say erroneously, I say that to interchange the words is only erroneous if we consider each to be mutually exclusive and in many cases they are not.

The desire to do more is in fact the compulsion of love to keep loving and do so so in more and more effective ways. There is nothing wrong inherantly with power. We need power, personal and social, if we are to bring together the necessary resources to help our communities. Mystics are in no way prohibited from engaging in this activity and witches are in no way incapable of acting from love alone.

But that is an elementary discussion for those not fully familiar with the terms used in such discussions and our attempt here is to move past that and into more meaningful discussion of personal experience.

"People who use magic are trying to get the powers that be to bend to their own personal desires..."-Fawzo

I take exception to this statement. It only applies to some people and generally only to initiates. You cannot move forward in the universe if your motivations are purely selfish. My personal desire is to make my corner of the universe better with every opportunity that presents itself. I am only a brief steward of those energies, not a master. Any advanced witch will likely say the same.

I agree. Magick should only be used as a last resort and only for the benefit of all. I never understood the need to do a love spell for an ex or a sympathy magick on a boss. Seems like such a waste of a gift.

[musicman153]

Interesting topic,

I've done a lot of ritual with a lot of groups (Wiccan, celtic, Druid ect) and solitary work. I do a lot of strange thigns though, like lived at an Ashram for ten mnths, go to a local buddhist temple and meditate with the monks. I dont think I'd have an opinion to share here without a bit of experience.

In any case "Magick" IMHO has to do with the manipulation of energy. Such as with Reiki we're directing energy (yes I also practice Reiki). So that being said, how can you work with energy if your thoughts are so scattered that you cannot focus that energy let alone have any concept of how, where, and why? The only way that I know to build the kind of focus it takes to get real results is through a regular meditation practice. The best rituals I've participated in were with people who were regular meditators. And then its not as magickal as it is scientific. Just as the electric light would seem like Magick to someone from the year 1300AD the science of Magick is not so miraculous to one who is trained in the science.

I've had experiences with those who feel that if they do the right things ie: cast a circle, call the quarters, say the right words ect that they should get results. If it were that easy everyone would be walking around zapping everyone who made them mad and so on. Anything good takes work.

And again yes the laws of karma still apply. You get what you give! I heard a man once say "the basis of all spirituality is thinking of others before yourself". You can direct all that energy into selfish desires, BUT nothing in this world (or other worlds) is free. Theres a price to be paid. Personally I've found that the happiest times in my life were when I was making others happy.

As you learn magick you learn spiritual lessons as well if you've a good teacher.

hopeing I'm not totally off topic

Om

Shanti

Music

Edited October 10, 2008 by musicman153

[Fawzo]

But you can be both a witch and a mystic. I know that because I am one. My ultimate desire is not for power for but for the greatest of Love's, the Divine spirit. In that pursuit I have earned a degree of dominion over my own reality. The use of that power is magick in my case and magick itself is not at all selfish. You say erroneously, I say that to interchange the words is only erroneous if we consider each to be mutually exclusive and in many cases they are not.

The desire to do more is in fact the compulsion of love to keep loving and do so so in more and more effective ways. There is nothing wrong inherantly with power. We need power, personal and social, if we are to bring together the necessary resources to help our communities. Mystics are in no way prohibited from engaging in this activity and witches are in no way incapable of acting from love alone.

But that is an elementary discussion for those not fully familiar with the terms used in such discussions and our attempt here is to move past that and into more meaningful discussion of personal experience.

"People who use magic are trying to get the powers that be to bend to their own personal desires..."-Fawzo

I take exception to this statement. It only applies to some people and generally only to initiates. You cannot move forward in the universe if your motivations are purely selfish. My personal desire is to make my corner of the universe better with every opportunity that presents itself. I am only a brief steward of those energies, not a master. Any advanced witch will likely say the same.

Any time you gain something through the use of magick someone or something loses out in the process. If the divine wanted something to be a different way than that which it already is, than IMHO the divine would have created it thusly. It doesn't create junk!!!

Would the divine be so inept that it needed humans to change things from the way it created them to be?

In my opinion magick serves the ego well. Does little for the divine.

But I appreciate your viewpoint as I have many friends who share it with you.

Brightest Blessings!

[Fawzo]

Interesting topic,

I've done a lot of ritual with a lot of groups (Wiccan, celtic, Druid ect) and solitary work. I do a lot of strange thigns though, like lived at an Ashram for ten mnths, go to a local buddhist temple and meditate with the monks. I dont think I'd have an opinion to share here without a bit of experience.

In any case "Magick" IMHO has to do with the manipulation of energy. Such as with Reiki we're directing energy (yes I also practice Reiki). So that being said, how can you work with energy if your thoughts are so scattered that you cannot focus that energy let alone have any concept of how, where, and why? The only way that I know to build the kind of focus it takes to get real results is through a regular meditation practice. The best rituals I've participated in were with people who were regular meditators. And then its not as magickal as it is scientific. Just as the electric light would seem like Magick to someone from the year 1300AD the science of Magick is not so miraculous to one who is trained in the science.

I've had experiences with those who feel that if they do the right things ie: cast a circle, call the quarters, say the right words ect that they should get results. If it were that easy everyone would be walking around zapping everyone who made them mad and so on. Anything good takes work.

And again yes the laws of karma still apply. You get what you give! I heard a man once say "the basis of all spirituality is thinking of others before yourself". You can direct all that energy into selfish desires, BUT nothing in this world (or other worlds) is free. Theres a price to be paid. Personally I've found that the happiest times in my life were when I was making others happy.

As you learn magick you learn spiritual lessons as well if you've a good teacher.

hopeing I'm not totally off topic

Om

Shanti

Music

Our minds are powerful and humans use many forms of ritual to help them focus their minds and the power therein.

I was in a discussion group last weekend with a bunch of Wiccan practicioners and the leader of their group stated that the pentagram or pentacle itself held power because of the shape of its design.

I being the rebel rouser that I am being the only non-Wiccan stated that I doubted this was true. If one takes a tree for example and carves the pentacle/pentagram from a portion of it, how would this be more powerful than the uses of the rest of the tree. SOme parts could be used for furniture and some even fro toilet tissue etc etc etc. the same tree made all the items why would the pentacle/pentagram be any more powerful then the toilet tissue.

I'm not picking on Wicca here any religious symbolism carved from the tree, inclusing a cross, would be just as powerful as the toilet tissue IMHO. Take any other material gold, silver, steel and portions of the same slabs could be used to make a variety of items all equally as powerful and Holy as the other.

We give our religious symbols the power and value that they have.

If the design itself is what imbues the symbol with the power then a symbol created of dog feces would be just as powerful!!!

I'm not intending to upset anyone just give them pause to ponder the power of their own minds.

[Himitsuko]

Actually MusicMan, you're exactly on topic. And I agree with you on two points. Regular meditators have far better self control and more importantly it seems as though their perceptions of the reality of a situation tends to be much clearer. You cannot change a situation the way you want it if you don't really understand what's going on, and what your motivations for change might be.

You also mentioned how the inclusion of meditation lends a scientific edge to actual practice and while I am not in fact a terribly disciplined meditator-not in the traditional sense of that word anyway, I know exactly what you mean about how it seems more scientific when you are with a group of people who know what they are doing.

For me, there is usually just one or two "right" ways to go about something, though always a plethora of "wrong" or misguided methods. So if I am trying to free my household from the 70 years of negative stuck energy in the walls of my apartment, I find that I do use a downright scientific methodology. First physically removing things. Cleaning them, then cleansing the space, then blessing the space, then putting everything back in according to the Feng Shui guidelines that I can follow, and then blessing and warding the room again. Its a process. And its a dedicated, focused, downright scientific process at that. I do most of that work from a place of active Zen. (okay that's just my phrase for what I mean)

One thing that I am struggling with however is the rest of the people in my life. There is my husband who Bless Him hasn't been a practitioner in years and isn't emotionally ready to look at it again-though he did buy me a wonderful set of Tarot cards he saw me eyeing, and for him that's a significant step right now. My other two roommates are sweet and wonderful people but they are "muggles" to be certain, and pack rats to boot.

I can't get the rest of my household to acknowledge any solution, much less my solution, much less actively and joyously participate. Not that I HAVE to have them there but it sure would be nice-and of course easier-and likely more effective. The result is that so far, only my bedroom-which I do not share with my husband as we are both very private and solitary individuals-is the only room that has been entirely addressed.

My conclusion is that I am simply going to have to tackle this myself since, as was earlier pointed out explicitely, to use my considerable charm to persuade them much further would be a clear violation of free will, and would consequently result in less than steller ends I'm sure.

However, has this type of situation been a problem for anyone else, and if so, how did you learn from it, how did you handle it, and if you had to do it again, would you address it differently?

Thanks for chiming in!

[Fawzo]

Actually MusicMan, you're exactly on topic. And I agree with you on two points. Regular meditators have far better self control and more importantly it seems as though their perceptions of the reality of a situation tends to be much clearer. You cannot change a situation the way you want it if you don't really understand what's going on, and what your motivations for change might be.

What if the Divine didn't want you to change a certain situation but wanted you to learn from it.

I'll give an example. What if I or someone you care about becomes ill and you do a spell for healing and help cure the ill person. What if the Divine had a specific purpose for inflicting that person with the illness, becuase they had a life's lesson to learn from it. Either to slow down because they were working too hard and on the path to a heart attack which would kill them or as a hint so that they might change their diet and improve their powers of reasoning so that may become more cognizant of the Divine within themselves and all those around them.

By healing the person you may have in effect robbed them temporarily of that lesson and caused them worse suffering later.

I do think becoming aware of the subtle energies in our Universe is important.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Fawzo

[musicman153]

What if the Divine didn't want you to change a certain situation but wanted you to learn from it.

I'll give an example. What if I or someone you care about becomes ill and you do a spell for healing and help cure the ill person. What if the Divine had a specific purpose for inflicting that person with the illness, becuase they had a life's lesson to learn from it. Either to slow down because they were working too hard and on the path to a heart attack which would kill them or as a hint so that they might change their diet and improve their powers of reasoning so that may become more cognizant of the Divine within themselves and all those around them.

By healing the person you may have in effect robbed them temporarily of that lesson and caused them worse suffering later.

I do think becoming aware of the subtle energies in our Universe is important.

Fawzo,

In some ways I do agree with you (this is where the wise part comes in ). My favorite qoute is "The universe is perfect" Timothy Leary. Nothing happens by accident, everything effects everythng else. We send healing energy, We do prosperity ...Spells ect. perhaps in the divine scheme we were meant to be there to do that. Christ healed and many Hindu saints have healed. Oh but this may be the hard part for you. God or Gods or goddess (He she it whatever) is not exclusive to Christians. keep an open mind here. If all is a part a part of Gods creation then of course all things would be under God.

Again everything effects everything. If a person commits suicide it changes the lives of those around them. Ten yrs down the road who knows if these peoples lives would be better or worse? Becoming a energy worker or light worker is very much about going with the flow of energy as you align yourself with such. nothing happens by accident. If you meet someone who finds that you practice Reiki and has been wanting to try it, is it a coincedence?

I think the whole point is that the divine plan includes everyone, every religion, every nation and this is where you are being a bit short sighted.

Not trying to be offensive just objective.

Peace

Music

[Himitsuko]

Any time you gain something through the use of magick someone or something loses out in the process. If the divine wanted something to be a different way than that which it already is, than IMHO the divine would have created it thusly. It doesn't create junk!!!

You're second sentence here is the one that is really interesting but I do want to address the first one real quickly. The universe has a virtually unlimited power to create and destroy. Your first statement seems to assume that there is a finite number of things in the universe and that the only possible way to gain something through the disciplined and careful use of magick, is to aggressively TAKE IT from someone else. But, i rarely use magick to gain anything physical. I use magick a lot to improve my outlook attitude and position in my world. Even if we assume what you said is true, and it might be, I fail to see what the issue is. You cannot make any omelets without breaking eggs so to speak. If you create a road, build a bridge, build a store, or a house, or purchase any product-and yes there is a price for the use of magick-someone or something still loses out. This is hardly an arguement for inaction.

That being said, your second statement is far more fascinating. First, let me whole heartedly agree that the Universe does not in fact create junk. I mean we have poisons and venoms and plenty of things tsunamis and plenty of other things that will destroy life in general, and human life in particular, but no one would ever go so far as to say that these things are junk. All things which exist serve a purpose for which they are uniquely designed. No thinking person I know questions this. But again, magick is hardly ever simply making things appear and disappear, and its definitely not about a judgment call on the value or worth of natural things which do exist.

Man on the other hand, is really big on creating lots and lots and lots of junk. So much that we have no idea what to do with them. For example, we have created biological weapons and destroyed a whole bunch of things in our irresponsible creation of junk. The divine did not directly create guns for example, but here they are and now we have to deal with their existance. Unless of course you think the Divine approves of things like hydrogen bombs, in which case my arguement is entirely moot.

The divine, in my mind, wants a pleasant existence for man, but we have to be responsible with our power and with our resources and we have to be willing to do the work to be good stewards of our environment. Magick is just one very tiny way of addressing that issue. When early pagans danced for rain it wasn't because they felt the Divine was screwing it all up by causing a drought that ought to be left alone, but because they felt that they too were a natural part of the environment, as free as any bird to create the best nest for themselves and their children as possible. At the heart of real magick, is the absolute realization that Man not only lives quite naturally, in his natural environment, and that as such, we are not actually capable of breaking natural law. We can only bend it momentarily for our purposes. Unless you are given to using sticks and rocks to build your house and kill your food, surely we can agree that while the Divine creates no junk, it is not wrong for Man to create his environment the best way that he knows how. Using your logic, the Divine wouldn't have just created trees, the Divine would have created houses for us too.

[SalemWitchChild]

What if the Divine didn't want you to change a certain situation but wanted you to learn from it.

I'll give an example. What if I or someone you care about becomes ill and you do a spell for healing and help cure the ill person. What if the Divine had a specific purpose for inflicting that person with the illness, becuase they had a life's lesson to learn from it. Either to slow down because they were working too hard and on the path to a heart attack which would kill them or as a hint so that they might change their diet and improve their powers of reasoning so that may become more cognizant of the Divine within themselves and all those around them.

By healing the person you may have in effect robbed them temporarily of that lesson and caused them worse suffering later.

I do think becoming aware of the subtle energies in our Universe is important.

You assume that your will can overpower the divines. Which I do not believe is the case.

Example: My husband is bipolar and has arthritis throughout most of his body. What that means? He's in constant pain and has rapid mood swings.

I am an energy healer. I have tried to help him. And while I had mild success I cannot do anything on a permanent level. Other healers have tried as well with the same results.

He believes this is his "cross" to bear. That he is being tested or punished for the past. I cannot change his mind otherwise. So until he works it out with himself and the divine I cannot intervene.

I can change the flow, take the hurt into myself for awhile. But in the end doing that only hurts both of us.

[Fawzo]

Fawzo,

In some ways I do agree with you (this is where the wise part comes in ). My favorite qoute is "The universe is perfect" Timothy Leary. Nothing happens by accident, everything effects everythng else. We send healing energy, We do prosperity ...Spells ect. perhaps in the divine scheme we were meant to be there to do that.

I can agree with everything stated above. The wise mystic would pretty much walk in the words of the serenity prayer. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference." I am sure there are similar type sayings in other cultures.

Christ healed and many Hindu saints have healed. Oh but this may be the hard part for you. God or Gods or goddess (He she it whatever) is not exclusive to Christians. keep an open mind here.

Yes many folks have healed and as a side note I do not label myself as Christian. I try to find the gold nuggets in all the belief systems I have encountered through my life. If my mind were any more open I would need one of those bungi type cords to hold it in place when I walk.

If all is a part a part of Gods creation then of course all things would be under God.

Again everything effects everything. If a person commits suicide it changes the lives of those around them. Ten yrs down the road who knows if these peoples lives would be better or worse? Becoming a energy worker or light worker is very much about going with the flow of energy as you align yourself with such. nothing happens by accident. If you meet someone who finds that you practice Reiki and has been wanting to try it, is it a coincedence?

I have no problem with Reiki practice. I kind of see it like the parable which states if you give a hungry man a fish you feed him for one meal but if you teach him how to fish you feed him for life. If you perform a healing on someone you take care of that days pain but if you teach them how to use their minds properly to avoid the disturbances which cause the imbalance you take care of a lifetime of pain for that person.

I also wonder about Reiki practitioners who believe in karma. If someone is suffering isn't it the effect of karma and what consequences could the practitioner themselves incur for interfering.

I think the whole point is that the divine plan includes everyone, every religion, every nation and this is where you are being a bit short sighted.

Not trying to be offensive just objective.

Peace

Music

I don't see where I'm being short sighted. I'm posing thoughts to induce discussion with others. I have very little doubt that everyone is a spark of the Divine Source which I have experienced as an agape loving deity.

I get the impression that you assume I'm of Christian belief. While I do try to live whole heartedly the two great commandments Yeshua gave us, I also love the teachings of Buddha, Lao Tzu, Seth associated with Jane Roberts and a host of others. I even tried taking Wicca 101 classes once but it wasn't for me.

Brightest Blessings!!!

You assume that your will can overpower the divines. Which I do not believe is the case.

Are you inferring that you are not a proponent of "free will" then. Is everything as the Divine Ones wished it to be in our Universe?

Example: My husband is bipolar and has arthritis throughout most of his body. What that means? He's in constant pain and has rapid mood swings.

I am an energy healer. I have tried to help him. And while I had mild success I cannot do anything on a permanent level. Other healers have tried as well with the same results.

He believes this is his "cross" to bear. That he is being tested or punished for the past. I cannot change his mind otherwise. So until he works it out with himself and the divine I cannot intervene.

I can change the flow, take the hurt into myself for awhile. But in the end doing that only hurts both of us.

I can understand this completely and sympathize with both your pains. The source of this belief of his is what needs to be addressed IMHO. Treating the cause instead of the effects seems to me to be more beneficial to you both.

[Fawzo]

You're second sentence here is the one that is really interesting but I do want to address the first one real quickly. The universe has a virtually unlimited power to create and destroy. Your first statement seems to assume that there is a finite number of things in the universe and that the only possible way to gain something through the disciplined and careful use of magick, is to aggressively TAKE IT from someone else. But, i rarely use magick to gain anything physical. I use magick a lot to improve my outlook attitude and position in my world. Even if we assume what you said is true, and it might be, I fail to see what the issue is. You cannot make any omelets without breaking eggs so to speak. If you create a road, build a bridge, build a store, or a house, or purchase any product-and yes there is a price for the use of magick-someone or something still loses out. This is hardly an arguement for inaction.

I will certainly agree that the supply of energy within our Universe is enough for all and then some. It merely changes forms depending on the perceiver and their level of awareness. The omelets and roads you wish to make are desires. A mystic desires only walking in the love of the Divine. In this state of mind one has no thoughts of food or roads and just being is all there is and desire ceases to exist. So when you state you that you don't find magick and mysticism to be mutually exclusive, I have to disagree because the use of magick seems rooted in a desire to change your present situation more to your liking.

That being said, your second statement is far more fascinating. First, let me whole heartedly agree that the Universe does not in fact create junk. I mean we have poisons and venoms and plenty of things tsunamis and plenty of other things that will destroy life in general, and human life in particular, but no one would ever go so far as to say that these things are junk. All things which exist serve a purpose for which they are uniquely designed. No thinking person I know questions this. But again, magick is hardly ever simply making things appear and disappear, and its definitely not about a judgment call on the value or worth of natural things which do exist.

Man on the other hand, is really big on creating lots and lots and lots of junk. So much that we have no idea what to do with them. For example, we have created biological weapons and destroyed a whole bunch of things in our irresponsible creation of junk. The divine did not directly create guns for example, but here they are and now we have to deal with their existance. Unless of course you think the Divine approves of things like hydrogen bombs, in which case my arguement is entirely moot.

It is a possibilty that the Divine Source has nothing to do with any of this and some portion of Consciousness wondered "what it would be like to go off and play by myself" or even that first thought of "I" created a dream like illusion which holds our main focus at the moment, just as our dreams hold our focus while we're in that level of awareness.

Do you think that the Divine had forknowledge of the less desireable creations of mankind and just allowed them to proceed without interferring? Didn't the Divine set the parameters of the game and what is and is not allowed within the game?

The divine, in my mind, wants a pleasant existence for man,...

Are you so sure this is true? If bliss was the goal then we would have never left the side of the Divine in the first place. Bliss isn't bliss if that is all you have. Eternity is a very very very long time and then some. Without the negative the positive does not exist. To help keep us entertained through eternity change would need to be a constant IMHO...look around at our Universe and notice this might be the only absolute truth in that change is constant.

When one is bored and watching televison sometimes one flips channel after channel consectutively until that gets boring and then one settles on a program to watch for a brief period of time. This life of ours could be such an event. Instead of 30 minutes of Hogan's Heros its 70 years of life on earth.

.. but we have to be responsible with our power and with our resources and we have to be willing to do the work to be good stewards of our environment. Magick is just one very tiny way of addressing that issue. When early pagans danced for rain it wasn't because they felt the Divine was screwing it all up by causing a drought that ought to be left alone, but because they felt that they too were a natural part of the environment, as free as any bird to create the best nest for themselves and their children as possible. At the heart of real magick, is the absolute realization that Man not only lives quite naturally, in his natural environment, and that as such, we are not actually capable of breaking natural law. We can only bend it momentarily for our purposes. Unless you are given to using sticks and rocks to build your house and kill your food, surely we can agree that while the Divine creates no junk, it is not wrong for Man to create his environment the best way that he knows how. Using your logic, the Divine wouldn't have just created trees, the Divine would have created houses for us too.

I will agree that Man should live in harmony with Nature. I think we have bent it as far as we dare due to our ignorance and immaturity and those philosophical schools that teach it is here for our use and abuse. Stewardship is the goal. In my opinion Magick could beused as a tool to help us better implement a plan, but once we develope the use of our minds more effectively, it will be likened unto an flint arrow head used by neolitihc man.

[musicman153]

Fawzo,

good post mon, I apologize for assuming that you were Christian and anti-everyone else lol although I've run into a lot of that. Just your talk of interfereing with the divne plan (if there is such a thing) made it sound as if the divine plan did not include those who practice alternative healing technics. Doses the divine plan include doctors?

"The divine, in my mind, wants a pleasant existence for man,.."

.I have to agre with fawzo on this. if the divine plan was for everyone to be happy. it'd be a utopian world! Theres Yin And Yang, good bad pain and Joy. We'd not know Joy without pain. And yes theres also Karma. We get what we play for in this life or the next (I'm talking physical lives). why do bad things happen to good people? perhaps they owe a karmic dept from a precvious birth. who knows

Heard a quote the other day "If we understood God, He'd no longer be God" LOL

Om

Shanti

Edited October 10, 2008 by musicman153

[SalemWitchChild]

I can agree with everything stated above. The wise mystic would pretty much walk in the words of the serenity prayer. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference." I am sure there are similar type sayings in other cultures.

Yes many folks have healed and as a side note I do not label myself as Christian. I try to find the gold nuggets in all the belief systems I have encountered through my life. If my mind were any more open I would need one of those bungi type cords to hold it in place when I walk.

I have no problem with Reiki practice. I kind of see it like the parable which states if you give a hungry man a fish you feed him for one meal but if you teach him how to fish you feed him for life. If you perform a healing on someone you take care of that days pain but if you teach them how to use their minds properly to avoid the disturbances which cause the imbalance you take care of a lifetime of pain for that person.

I also wonder about Reiki practitioners who believe in karma. If someone is suffering isn't it the effect of karma and what consequences could the practitioner themselves incur for interfering.

I don't see where I'm being short sighted. I'm posing thoughts to induce discussion with others. I have very little doubt that everyone is a spark of the Divine Source which I have experienced as an agape loving deity.

I get the impression that you assume I'm of Christian belief. While I do try to live whole heartedly the two great commandments Yeshua gave us, I also love the teachings of Buddha, Lao Tzu, Seth associated with Jane Roberts and a host of others. I even tried taking Wicca 101 classes once but it wasn't for me.

Brightest Blessings!!!

Are you inferring that you are not a proponent of "free will" then. Is everything as the Divine Ones wished it to be in our Universe?

Well I don't think its black or white. I do believe some things are divine will. I don't believe everything is. At this point, its not a matter of what I believe. It's a matter of what my husband believes.

I can understand this completely and sympathize with both your pains. The source of this belief of his is what needs to be addressed IMHO. Treating the cause instead of the effects seems to me to be more beneficial to you both.

I completely agree. And I've encouraged him to meditate as a start to working through it. But in the end I can only give encouragement. Until he makes the effort, I cannot help more than what I already do.

[Qryos]

~ What a wonderful discussion! I don't have a lot to add, you've all done so marvelously!

Personally, I'm not big on rituals & symbols. I once was. Now I find that finding my center & focusing is all I really need.

{OK, truth, I don't do it often enough }

You asked Himi, what more you could do with your energy & focus. Have you tried retirement homes or a hospice?

Gentling one towards death would be hard, but I would think would be a wonderful use of your talents.

Just a thought.

[Fawzo]

Doses the divine plan include doctors?

They are a necessity it seems in our present state of awareness. A great mystic once stated "physician heal thyself" but that is very hard to do when one isn't aware that they are a physician. It is not even easy for those who are coming into the knowledge that they are such.

[musicman153]

They are a necessity it seems in our present state of awareness. A great mystic once stated "physician heal thyself" but that is very hard to do when one isn't aware that they are a physician. It is not even easy for those who are coming into the knowledge that they are such.

Even though I pratice reiki I would neither tell someone not to see a doctor nor interfere with his work. for example I'm careful not to send reiki to someone while undergoing an operation even thogh Reiki energy will only go where its needed. I also make sure people understand that I am not a doctor and do "not" practice medicine.

Alternative medicine or healing technics often pick up where medicine leaves off such as with illnesses where the doctors say its terminal or cannot diagnos. we've actually had great sucsess.

and sometimes yes, someones just ready to move on.

peace