Pete

Surely Christians have been doing this for years. I enjoyed Rabbio comments and also recognise that no one speaks for all Jews (as the comment seems to suggest), even Rabbio's, in the same way as us Christians cannot get it together to agree on everything. However, removing the understanding of Jews from Christianity is a bit like severing ones left from ones right. For me it all goes to show what might of been if we could only have got it together from the beginning (a pox on the Roman Empire).

Jesus was supposed to have spat on a piece of mud and used it to cure a person's eye. I think I would have a few law suites should I try it. Like I say I am not ruling things out. All I am asking is to see the evidence that a thing works first. Sure all things maybe a vibration/energy at some level but that does not mean it is a similar frequency to the cat purr or that it is a tangible and usable vibration that can be controlled by the will of a person. It maybe that Reiki ends up showing a scientific bases to its affect but that again does not mean every other method works also. Yes, I have had to think in a particular way when it comes to health or I get sued if I cannot justify my actions. That does not mean that what I can justify is all there is to know. I have just not seen any quantifiable evidence for the laying on of hands or anyone who is prepared to do so under scientific scrutiny.

I guess it comes down to research. Can a person demonstrate that a person who has had hands laid upon them stands more chance of recovery? Is any recovery rate different from the norm? Can such events be reproduced as evidence? Failing that it comes down to something you believe and I have seen no real evidence for. However, the cat purring and that's affect on healing has been demonstrated according to a UK newspaper, but then it is down to the vibration. There is no scientific proof that any such vibration is exchange through people laying on of hands and therefore I suggest we are talking about some different. Like I say, I am not saying it is rubbish and beliefs are not important in healing but I am saying that there is a lack of demonstratable evidence for the laying on of hands and what there is, is anecdotal . If it where not so then every hospital in the world would have someone come around and do this. Each Hospital wants to save money as treatments are expensive. The laying on of hands would be a very cheap option if it was affective and yet, no hospital I know in the UK or US does this as standard treatment.

I thought I would look it up, as I believed it maybe an English slang term. However, it seems I owe the US for its creation. See:- http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bunkum I find things like that interesting.

I base my opinion on nearly 40yrs of working in the health service. I believe in the placebo affect and auto suggestion (being trained in hypnotherapy, I guess I would say that ) . From what I see of healing is oft the coincidence of the recovery of a person or the giving of permission for a person to become healed. Coincidence happens and people do recover quickly sometimes with or without pray. Some people hang onto illnesses that serve them in some way. Sometimes it takes an incidence or an event for them to give themselves permission to recover. Sometimes, the presenting physical illness is caused more by a person's mental/social health than it is an actual physical illness and in this area I do believe spiritual healing has a place. The Body and the mind are related and can affect each other. Spiritual healing and faith can sometimes give the motivation for a person to recover, within the limits of what was possible. I have never seen an amputee spring another leg. However, the laying hands on people with genuine physical illness and telling them they are now healed, only seems to work in areas were a person was going to recover anyway (in my experience). I have met people who tell me very assuredly that Jesus or something has healed them of things like cancer and when the checks are done, I see the growth and recognise that the illness is just in relapse, only to become a problem again at a later date. I am not saying that all spiritual healing is bunkum but I would have to personally see the medical evidence for proof. I would not accept the off the cuff remark that some doctor says that a miracle has happened as usually this just means something happened that they were not expecting. That sort of occurrence happens to us all. I may go to work on the bus and find it is often late and one day it turns up on time and I may declare it seems a miracle. I am not saying I know it all and I am not saying that healing cannot take place. All I am saying is after watching some terrible suffering by people in my life (and I prayed for all), I am sceptical. Please forgive my doubt here. There is nothing I would like more than to believe it can work but that alone does not in its self make it true according to my personal and painful experience (IMO).

The trouble is, as I see it, no person today can heal people by their faith. Sure many can talk about it but that's where it begins and ends. I can recall a lovely lady who had been a Christian all her life being dogged by cancer. She had healing prayers said over her for years but the cancer kept returning. She was given many operations for removal of tumours and to lengthen her life. In the end, when frail by surgery upon surgery, she just stopped eating and would pull out drips and nasal gastric feeds. She prayed and prayed for healing until with bitter pain she gave in. The church argued that she had committed suicide by not eating but I do not believe so. She just saw what was to happen and took the only path that she felt she had left to her after years of suffering and living in agony. I am not saying her prayers (or mine went unanswered) but it was one of many very painful events. I just believe she is in a better place. I have also met people who have come to hospital and tell me that they had been healed by their church but I look at the x-rays and medical tests and see nothing has changed. One would think if Jesus had meant for us to heal people by faith he would of at least had someone about who could do it today. I see unexplained events from time to time but they are not about any particular faiths or religion. It is just that the human body is complex and sometimes circumstances play out in their favour. Sorry to put a downer on things but I really do not know any faith healers who can show by scientific testing that they achieved anything. Sure belief can be powerful, but in my experience, it is not without limitations.

So would you distance yourself from people who preach that Jesus did say they can heal because it only meant the disciples? There are many around who argue that:- http://fertra1.blogspot.com/2009/09/weve-got-power-to-heal.html "Given these gifts, today’s church will operate as the disciples did under the authority and power of Jesus. It is our right as followers of Christ. For example, we have the right to exercise: _ authority and power over unclean spirits (Mk 6.7) _ authority and power to heal disease (Mat 10.1) _ authority and power to move mountains (symbolic or otherwise) (Mat 17.20) _ authority to announce the forgiveness of sins through Jesus (Jn 20.23)" http://www.seekingtruth.co.uk/authority.pdf "If Jesus is truly in you, you also have the power to heal: sicknesses, pain, casting out of devils, raising the dead - whatever the affliction, we have the same power that Jesus has to heal them. " http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/heal.htm I personally have attended healing services and they have preached that Jesus did give them the power. However, they used the "get out of jail card" when things did not go as planned and blamed it on a person for not having enough faith. Which leaves the poor victim feeling worse off (feeling ill and rejected by God).

I have a friend who is Roman Catholic and he informed me some while ago that the verse:- "I solemnly tell you that whatever you as a Church bind on earth will in Heaven be held as bound, and whatever you loose on earth will in Heaven be held to be loosed. Weymouth New Testament" gives authority for the Roman Catholic church to have powers that can affect people both on earth and in heaven. He told me the RC church is seen to be quite literally God's church on earth and other groups and churches are differing religions. Now I do not wish to debate that here (accept to say I do not agree) but there are differing ways to read the bible and some churches use verses to give themselves authority against all other. One can read Revelations and understand it from a spiritual angle, a church administration, or an extension of Paul's message on salvation. There is huge debate as to whether Revelations was written to be fulfilled and give hope to those suffering persecution in the time of the Roman empire or at some future date and much of how one interprates it depends on ones accepted theology. There is also much debate as to whether John the disciple, John the writer of the gospel, John the writer of the letters and John the author of Revelations were all or not, differing people. All I would say is that much of the understanding of the bible has been based on giving authority to someone at the expense of another. Some say the great commission for instance, was just for the disciples at the time, just for his church on earth (i.e. RC or orthrodox) and some say it is for everyone. I expect what a person makes of that would depend upon what church or ideology a person follows.

I do not believe any crusade is being made on the God of the bible. I would make a distinction between many of the descriptions from the bible of God and that of God. The bible is inspired (IMO) and may display an image of God but it is a cracked image (IMO). I believe in God and pray often throughout each day and one of the reasons that many who challenge the bibles image of God and still refer to themselves as a Christian is because they believe Jesus did make known the true image of God. It is Jesus that displays that image of a loving God, as God worked through him. The bible is just a human report based on reports the authors of the NT have heard from others. I am saying that it is not God I challenge or Jesus. It is the idea that the bible is infallible and makes God sound unfair and unloving (something I just do not believe). I may have a respect for other faiths as they discover God in their journeys but please make no mistake, I am not about to change mine and I do not believe many of the liberal preachers are going to change theirs. I am a Christian and I do not need yours or anyone else's validation of that. I may not believe the bible is inerrant but that for me does not signify whether someone is a Christian or not in my eyes. As I pointed out in my original post, there are some terrible laws that God is supposed to have been the author of through Moses, and I just do not believe that God actually was. Contrast the love of Jesus and him crucified as a symbol of God's love for everyone and that of God in the OT that wanted to drown everyone in the days of Noah and I find it leaves an incredible paradox (IMO).

12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, I contest that Dan. It says that those with faith would do what he has been doing. So your saying that Jesus did not mean miracles, healing the sick and rising from the dead after crucifixion. If it just meant preaching and talking to God then I am sorry but the Jews and others had a head start on this. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also about Bible inerrancy:- According to an article in Theology Today published in 1975, "There have been long periods in the history of the church when biblical inerrancy has not been a critical question. It has in fact been noted that only in the last two centuries can we legitimately speak of a formal doctrine of inerrancy. The arguments pro and con have filled many books, and almost anyone can join in the debate." http://en.wikipedia....lical_inerrancy There is also much debate on whether the bible is inerrant or not and this has been going on for some while. Whilst I may believe that the bible is not inerrant, that is not the same as saying that the bible is not inspired. Inspired I can accept. Inerrant I cannot. http://www.religious...g/ine_none1.htm http://www.religious...g/ine_none3.htm

Sorry Dan but I do not see that. See:- John 14:12-14 (New International Version) 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, It seems to me that Jesus said (according to the Bible) anyone who has faith in me.

I hope people do not mind if I print the 95 theses here (Taken from http://matthewfoxcs.blogspot.com/) 1. God is both Mother and Father. Gott ist Mutter und Vater. 2. At this time in history, God is more Mother than Father because the feminine is most missing and it is important to bring gender balance back. In unserer Zeit ist Gott mehr Mutter als Vater, denn das Weibliche fehlt am meisten, und es ist wesentlich, das Gleichgewicht der Geschlechter wieder herzustellen. 3. God is always new, always young and always “in the beginning.” Gott ist immer neu, immer jung und immer „im Anfang“. 4. God the Punitive Father is not a God worth honoring but a false god and an idol that serves empire-builders. The notion of a punitive, all-male God, is contrary to the full nature of the Godhead who is as much female and motherly as it is masculine and fatherly. Gott als strafender Vater ist keine anbetungswürdige Gottheit, sondern ein Götze, der den Imperialisten dient. Die Vorstellung eines strafenden, männlichen Gottes widerspricht dem umfassenden Wesen der Gottheit, die ebenso weiblich und mütterlich wie männlich und väterlich ist. 5. “All the names we give to God come from an understanding of ourselves.” (Eckhart) Thus people who worship a punitive father are themselves punitive. "Alle N amen, die wir Gott geben, stammen aus unserem Selbstverständnis." (Meister Eckhart*) Deshalb sind diejenigen, die Gott als strafend bezeichnen, selbst strafend. 6. Theism (the idea that God is ‘out there’ or above and beyond the universe) is false. All things are in God and God is in all things (panentheism). Der Theismus (die Vorstellung, daß Gott irgendwo `da draußen´ ist oder oberhalb oder außerhalb des Universums) ist falsch. Alle Dinge sind in Gott, und Gott ist in allen Dingen (Panentheismus). 7. Everyone is born a mystic and a lover who experiences the unity of things and all are called to keep this mystic or lover of life alive. Jede und jeder ist als MystikerIn geboren und als LiebendeR, der oder die die Einheit aller Dinge erlebt und berufen ist, dieses Mystische und diese Lebensliebe lebendig zu erhalten. 8. All are called to be prophets which is to interfere with injustice. Alle Menschen sind berufen Prophetinnen und Propheten zu sein, was bedeutet, sich in Ungerechtigkeit einzumischen. 9. Wisdom is Love of Life (See the Book of Wisdom: “This is wisdom: to love life” and Christ in John’s Gospel: “I have come that you may have life and have it in abundance.”) Weisheit ist die Liebe zum Leben (siehe das Buch der Weisheit: „Weisheit heißt: das Leben zu lieben.“ und Christus im Johannes-Evangelium: „Ich bin gekommen, damit ihr das Leben habt, Leben in Fülle.“) 10. God loves all of creation and science can help us more deeply penetrate and appreciate the mysteries and wisdom of God in creation. Science is no enemy of true religion. Gott liebt die ganze Schöpfung, und die Wissenschaft kann uns helfen, tiefer in die Mysterien und die Weisheit Gottes in der Schöpfung einzudringen. Wissenschaft ist kein Feind echter Religion. 11. Religion is not necessary but spirituality is. Religion ist nicht notwendig, wohl aber Spiritualität. 12. “Jesus does not call us to a new religion but to life.” (Bonhoeffer) Spirituality is living life at a depth of newness and gratitude, courage and creativity, trust and letting go, compassion and justice. "Jesus ruft uns nicht zu einer neuen Religion, sondern zum Leben" (nach Bonhoeffer*). Spiritualität heißt, das Leben in tiefer Neuheit und Dankbarkeit zu leben, in Mut und Kreativität, Vertrauen und Gelassenheit, Mitgefühl und Gerechtigkeit. 13. Spirituality and religion are not the same thing any more than education and learning, law and justice, or commerce and stewardship are the same thing. Spiritualität und Religion sind ebensowenig das gleiche, wie Bildung und Wissen, Gerechtigkeit und Gesetz oder Treuhänderschaft und Kommerz. 14. Christians must distinguish between God (masculine and history, liberation and salvation) and Godhead (feminine and mystery, being and non-action). Christen müssen unterscheiden zwischen Gott (männlich und Geschichte, Befreiung und Erlösung) und Gottheit (weiblich und Mysterium, Sein und Nicht-Handeln). 15. Christians must distinguish between Jesus (an historical figure) and Christ (the experience of God-in-all-things). Christen müssen unterscheiden zwischen Jesus (einer historischen Gestalt) und Christus (der Erfahrung von Gott-in-allen-Dingen). 16. Christians must distinguish between Jesus and Paul. Christen müssen zwischen Jesus und Paulus unterscheiden. 17. Jesus, not unlike many spiritual teachers, taught us that we are sons and daughters of God and are to act accordingly by becoming instruments of divine compassion. Ähnlich anderen spirituellen Lehrern lehrte Jesus uns, daß wir Söhne und Töchter Gottes sind und uns deshalb als Werkzeuge des göttlichen Mitgefühls zu verhalten haben. 18. Ecojustice is a necessity for planetary survival and human ethics and without it we are crucifying the Christ all over again in the form of destruction of forests, waters, species, air and soil. Ökologische Gerechtigkeit ist für das Überleben des Planeten und eine menschliche Ethik notwendig. Ohne eine solche kreuzigen wir den Christus immer wieder in Form der Zerstörung von Wäldern, Wasser, Spezies, Luft und Boden. 19. Sustainability is another word for justice, for what is just is sustainable and what is unjust is not. Nachhaltigkeit ist ein anderes Wort für Gerechtigkeit, denn was gerecht ist, ist auch nachhaltig, und was ungerecht ist, nicht. 20. A preferential option for the poor, as found in the base community movement, is far closer to the teaching and spirit of Jesus than is a preferential option for the rich and powerful as found in, for example, Opus Dei. Eine Option für die Armen, wie beispielsweise in der Bewegung der Basisgemeinden, ist der Lehre und dem Geist Jesu viel näher als die Option für die Reichen und Mächtigen, wie beispielsweise im Opus Dei. 21. Economic Justice requires the work of creativity to birth a system of economics that is global, respectful of the health and wealth of the earth systems and that works for all. Ökonomische Gerechtigkeit braucht das Wirken der Kreativität, um ein Wirtschaftssystem hervorzubringen, das global ist, das Achtung hat vor der Gesundheit und dem Reichtum der planetaren Systeme und das für alle Menschen funktioniert. 22. Celebration and worship are key to human community and survival and such reminders of joy deserve new forms that speak in the language of the twenty-first century. Feier und Kult sind Schlüssel zur menschlichen Gemeinschaft und zum Überleben. Derartige Anstösse zur Freude verdienen neue Formen, welche die Sprache des 21.Jahrhunderts sprechen. 23. Sexuality is a sacred act and a spiritual experience, a theophany (revelation of the Divine), a mystical experience. It is holy and deserves to be honored as such. Sexualität ist eine heilige Handlung und eine spirituelle Erfahrung, eine Theophanie (Offenbarung des Göttlichen), eine mystische Erfahrung. Sie ist heilig und verdient es, als solche geehrt zu werden. 24. Creativity is both humanity’s greatest gift and its most powerful weapon for evil and so it ought to be both encouraged and steered to humanity’s most God-like activity which all religions agree is: Compassion. Kreativität ist sowohl die größte Gabe der Menschheit wie auch ihre mächtigste Waffe für das Böse. Deshalb müssen wir zum Mitgefühl ermutigt und gelenkt werden, das – wie alle Religion übereinstimmend sagen – die gottesähnlichste Handlung der Menschheit ist. 25. There is a priesthood of all workers (all who are doing good work are midwives of grace and therefore priests) and this priesthood ought to be honored as sacred and workers should be instructed in spirituality in order to carry on their ministry effectively. Es gibt eine Priesterschaft aller Arbeitenden (die gute Werke tun und Hebammen der Gnade sind und darum PriesterInnen), und diese Priesterschaft sollte als heilig geehrt werden, und die Arbeitenden sollten in Spiritualität unterrichtet werden, um ihr Amt wirksam ausüben zu können. 26. Empire-building is incompatible with Jesus’ life and teaching and with Paul’s life and teaching and with the teaching of holy religions. Imperialismus ist nicht verträglich mit dem Leben und der Lehre Jesu und dem Leben und der Lehre des Paulus und mit der Lehre der heiligen Religionen. 27. Ideology is not theology and ideology endangers the faith because it replaces thinking with obedience, and distracts from the responsibility of theology to adapt the wisdom of the past to today’s needs. Instead of theology it demands loyalty oaths to the past. Ideologie ist keine Theologie, sondern gefährdet den Glauben, weil sie das Denken durch Gehorchen ersetzt und von der Verantwortung der Theologie ablenkt, die Weisheit der Vergangenheit an die heutigen Bedürfnisse anzupassen. Statt Theologie verlangt sie Loyalitäts-Eide auf die Vergangenheit. 28 Loyalty is not a sufficient criterion for ecclesial office—intelligence and proven conscience is. Loyalität ist kein ausreichendes Kriterium für ein Kirchenamt – wohl aber Intelligenz und ein unter Beweis gestelltes Gewissen. 29. No matter how much the television media fawn over the pope and papacy because it makes good theater, the pope is not the church but has a ministry within the church. Papalolotry is a contemporary form of idolatry and must be resisted by all believers. Ganz gleich wieviel die Fernsehanstalten den Papst und das Pontifikat hofieren, weil das eine gute Show macht, ist doch der Papst nicht die Kirche, sondern hat nur ein Amt innerhalb der Kirche. Pontifikalismus ist eine zeitgenössische Art des Götzendienstes, dem alle Gläubigen widerstehen müssen. 30. Creating a church of Sycophants is not a holy thing. Sycophants (Webster’s dictionary defines them as “servile self-seeking flatterers”) are not spiritual people for their only virtue is obedience. A Society of Sycophants — sycophant clergy, sycophant seminarians, sycophant bishops, sycophant cardinals, sycophant religious orders of Opus Dei, Legioneers of Christ and Communion and Liberation, and the sycophant press--do not represent in any way the teachings or the person of the historical Jesus who chose to stand up to power rather than amassing it. Eine Kirche von Sycophanten zu schaffen ist nichts Heiliges. Sycophanten (laut Lexikon „unterwürfige, sich selbst suchende Schmeichler“) sind keine spirituellen Menschen, denn ihre einzige Tugend ist der Gehorsam. Eine Gesellschaft der Sycophanten – sycophantischer Klerus, sycophantische Seminaristen, sycophantische Bischöfe, sycophantische Kardinäle, sycophantische religiöse Orden wie Opus Dei, die Legionäre Christi oder `Gemeinschaft und Befreiung´, sowie eine sycophantische Presse – vertreten in keiner Weise die Lehren oder die Person des historischen Jesus, der sich gegen die Macht aufgelehnt hat statt sie anzuhäufen. 31. Vows of pontifical secrecy are a certain way to corruption and cover-up in the church as in any human organization. Pontifikale Verschwiegenheitseide sind in der Kirche ein ebenso sicherer Weg zur Korruption und Vertuschung wie in allen anderen menschlichen Organisationen. 32. Original sin is an ultimate expression of a punitive father God and is not a Biblical teaching. But original blessing (goodness and grace) is biblical. Die Ursünde ist äußerster Ausdruck eines strafenden Vatergottes und keine biblische Lehre. Der ursprüngliche Segen (Güte und Gnade) aber ist biblisch. 33. The term “original wound” better describes the separation humans experience on leaving the womb and entering the world, a world that is often unjust and unwelcoming than does the term “original sin.” Der Ausdruck „ursprüngliche Wunde“ beschreibt besser als „Ursünde“ die Trennung, die die Menschen beim Verlassen des Mutterleibes erleben und beim Betreten einer Welt, die oft ungerecht und abweisend ist. 34. Fascism and the compulsion to control is not the path of peace or compassion and those who practice fascism are not fitting models for sainthood. The seizing of the apparatus of canonization to canonize fascists is a stain on the church. Faschismus und Kontrollzwang sind kein Weg zu Frieden oder Mitgefühl. Und diejenigen, die Faschismus praktizieren, sind keine passenden Vorbilder der Heiligkeit. Der Mißbrauch des Kanonisierungs-Apparates zur Kanonisierung von Faschisten ist ein Schandfleck auf der Kirche. 35. The Spirit of Jesus and other prophets calls people to simple life styles in order that “the people may live.” Der Geist Jesu und anderer Propheten beruft die Menschen zu einem einfachen Lebensstil, damit „die Menschen leben mögen“. 36. Dancing, whose root meaning in many indigenous cultures is the same as breath or spirit, is a very ancient and appropriate form in which to pray. Tanzen hat in vielen ursprünglichen Kulturen die gleiche Bedeutungswurzel wie Atmen oder Geist und ist eine sehr alte und angemessene Form des Betens. 37. To honor the ancestors and celebrate the communion of saints does not mean putting heroes on pedestals but rather honoring them by living out lives of imagination, courage and compassion in our own time, culture and historical moment as they did in theirs. Die Vorfahren zu achten und die Gemeinschaft der Heiligen zu feiern, bedeutet nicht, Helden auf ein Podest zu heben, sondern sie dadurch zu ehren, daß wir in unserer eigenen Zeit, Kultur und Geschichte phantasievoll, mutig und mitfühlend leben, wie sie es in ihrer taten. 38. A diversity of interpretation of the Jesus event and the Christ experience is altogether expected and welcomed as it was in the earliest days of the church. Wie in der Frühzeit der Kirche ist eine Deutungsvielfalt für die Ereignisse um Jesus und die Christus-Erfahrung erwartungsgemäß und erwünscht. 39. Therefore unity of church does not mean conformity. There is unity in diversity. Coerced unity is not unity. Einheit der Kirche bedeutet deshalb nicht Konformität. Es gibt eine Einheit in der Vielfalt. Erzwungene Einheit ist keine Einheit. 40. The Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of working through participatory democracy in church structures and hierarchical modes of being can indeed interfere with the work of the Spirit. Der Heilige Geist ist durchaus in der Lage in partizipatorisch demokratischen Kirchenstrukturen zu wirken; und hierarchische Modelle können das Wirken des Geistes auch behindern. 41. The body is an awe-filled sacred Temple of God and this does not mean it is untouchable but rather that all its dimensions, well named by the seven charkas, are as holy as the others. Der Körper ist ein ehrfurchtsvoller Tempel Gottes. Und das bedeutet nicht, daß er unberührbar sei, sondern daß alle seine Dimensionen – benannt als die sieben Chakren – gleichermaßen heilig sind. 42. Thus our connection with the earth (first chakra) is holy; and our sexuality (second chakra) is holy; and our moral outrage (third chakra) is holy; and our love that stands up to fear (fourth chakra) is holy; and our prophetic voice that speaks out is holy (fifth chakra); and our intuition and intelligence (sixth chakra) are holy; and our gifts we extend to the community of light beings and ancestors (seventh chakra) are holy. Deshalb ist unsere Verbindung mit der Erde heilig (erstes Chakra); und unsere Sexualität ist heilig (zweites Chakra); und unsere moralische Empörung ist heilig (drittes Chakra); und unsere Liebe, die sich gegen die Angst stellt, ist heilig (viertes Chakra); und unsere prophetisch sich äußernde Stimme ist heilig (fünftes Chakra); und unsere Intuition und Intelligenz sind heilig (sechstes Chakra); und unsere Gaben, mit denen wir an der Gemeinschaft der Lichtwesen und Vorfahren teilhaben, sind heilig (siebentes Chakra). 43. The prejudice of rationalism and left-brain located in the head must be balanced by attention to the lower charkas as equal places for wisdom and truth and Spirit to act. Das Vorurteil des Rationalismus und der nur im Kopf angesiedelten linken Hirnhälfte muß ein Gleichgewicht finden mit einer Aufmerksamkeit auf die unteren Chakren, die ebenso Weisheit und Wahrheit und handelnden Geist verkörpern. 44. The central chakra, compassion, is the test of the health of all the others which are meant to serve it for “by their fruits you will know them” (Jesus). Das zentrale Chakra, das Mitgefühl, ist der Prüfstein für die Gesundheit aller anderen, die ihm dienen sollen, denn „an ihren Früchten werdet ihr sie erkennen“ (Jesus). 45. “Joy is the human’s noblest act.” (Aquinas) Is our culture and its professions, education and religion, promoting joy? "Freude ist das edelste Werk des Menschen." (Thomas von Aquin) Fördern unsere Kultur und ihre Berufe, die Bildung und Religion wirklich Freude? 46. The human psyche is made for the cosmos and will not be satisfied until the two are re-united and awe, the beginning of wisdom, results from this reunion. Die menschliche Seele ist für den Kosmos geschaffen und wird nicht zufrieden sein, solange diese beiden nicht vereint sind und Ehrfurcht, der Beginn der Weisheit, aus dieser Verbindung entsteht. 47. The four paths named in the creation spiritual tradition more fully name the mystical/prophetic spiritual journey of Jesus and the Jewish tradition than do the three paths of purgation, illumination and union which do not derive from the Jewish and Biblical tradition. Die vier von der Schöpfungstradition benannten Pfade repräsentieren die mystisch-prophetische geistige Reise Jesu und der jüdischen Überlieferung besser als die drei Pfade der Läuterung, Erleuchtung und Vereinigung, die nicht aus der jüdischen und biblischen Tradition stammen. 48. Thus it can be said that God is experienced in experiences of ecstasy, joy, wonder and delight (via positiva). Deshalb kann man sagen, daß Gott in einer Erfahrung der Ekstase, der Freude, des Staunens und der Begeisterung erlebt wird (via positiva). 49. God is experienced in darkness, chaos, nothingness, suffering, silence and in learning to let go and let be (via negativa). Gott wird erlebt in Dunkelheit, Chaos, Nichtigkeit, Leiden, Stille und im Erlernen des Geschehen- und Seinlassens (via negativa). 50. God is experienced in acts of creativity and co-creation (via creativa). Gott wird erfahren in Taten der Kreativität und der Mitschöpfung (via creativa). 51. All people are born creative. It is spirituality’s task to encourage holy imagination for all are born in the “image and likeness” of the Creative One and “the fierce power of imagination is a gift from God.” (Kaballah) Alle Menschen werden kreativ geboren. Es ist eine Aufgabe der Spiritualität die heilige Phantasie zu ermuntern, denn alle sind "im Ebenbilde" des Schöpferischen geboren und "die wilde Kraft der Vorstellung ist eine Gabe Gottes" (Kabbala). 52. If you can talk you can sing; if you can walk you can dance; if you can talk you are an artist. (African proverb and Native American saying) Wenn du sprechen kannst, kannst du auch singen: wenn du gehen kannst, kannst du auch tanzen; wenn du sprechen kannst, bist du ein Künstler. (Afrikanisches und indianisches Sprichwort) 53. God is experienced in our struggle for justice, healing, compassion and celebration (via transformativa). Gott wird erlebt in unserem Kampf für Gerechtigkeit, Heilung, Mitgefühl und Feier (via transformativa). 54. The Holy Spirit works through all cultures and all spiritual traditions and blows “where it wills” and is not the exclusive domain of any one tradition and never has been. Der Heilige Geist wirkt durch alle Kulturen und alle spirituellen Überlieferungen und "weht wo er will" und ist und war niemals einer Tradition exklusiv vorbehalten. 55. God speaks today as in the past through all religions and all cultures and all faith traditions none of which is perfect and an exclusive avenue to truth but all of which can learn from each other. Gott spricht heute wie in der Vergangenheit durch alle Religionen und alle Kulturen und alle Glaubensüberlieferungen, die alle nicht vollkommene oder alleinige Wege zur Wahrheitsind, sondern alle voneinander lernen können. 56. Therefore Interfaith or Deep Ecumenism are a necessary part of spiritual praxis and awareness in our time. Deshalb ist eine glaubensübergreifende oder Tiefenökumene notwendiger Teil einer zeitgemäßen spirituellen Praxis und Bewußtheit. 57. Since the “number one obstacle to interfaith is a bad relationship with one’s own faith,” (the Dalai Lama) it is important that Christians know their own mystical and prophetic tradition, one that is larger than a religion of empire and its punitive father images of God. Da "das Haupthindernis für eine Glaubensbegegnung eine schlechte Beziehung zum eigenen Glauben ist" (der Dalai Lama), ist es für Christen wichtig, ihre eigene mystische und prophetische Tradition kennenzulernen, die umfassender ist als eine Religion des Imperiums und ihr strafend väterliches Gottesbild. 58. The cosmos is God’s holy Temple and our holy home. Der Kosmos ist Gottes heiliger Tempel und unsere heilige Heimat. 59. Fourteen billion years of evolution and unfolding of the universe bespeak the intimate sacredness of all that is. Milliarden Jahre Evolution und Entfaltung des Universums weisen auf die innerste Heiligkeit allen Seins hin. 60. All that is is holy and all that is is related for all being in our universe began as one being just before the fireball erupted. Alles, was ist, ist heilig, und alles, was ist, steht zueinander in Beziehung, denn alles Sein in diesem Universum begann als ein Sein, bevor der Urknall geschah. 61. Interconnectivity is not only a law of physics and of nature but also forms the basis of community and of compassion. Compassion is the working out of our shared interconnectivity both as to our shared joy and our shared suffering and struggle for justice. Wechselseitige Verbundenheit ist nicht nur ein physikalisches und Naturgesetz, sondern stellt auch die Grundlage unserer Gesellschaft und des Mitgefühls dar. Mitgefühl ist die Umsetzung unserer gegenseitigen Verbundenheit sowohl in bezug auf unsere gemeinsame Freude wie auch in bezug auf unser gemeinsames Leid und unseren Kampf um Gerechtigkeit. 62. The universe does not suffer from a shortage of grace and no religious institution is to see its task as rationing grace. Grace is abundant in God’s universe. Das Universum leidet nicht an einem Mangel an Gnade und keine religiöse Institution darf ihre Aufgabe in der Rationierung von Gnade sehen. In Gottes Welt gibt es genügend Gnade. 63. Creation, Incarnation and Resurrection are continuously happening on a cosmic as well as a personal scale. So too are Life, Death and Resurrection (regeneration and reincarnation) happening on a cosmic scale as well as a personal one. Schöpfung, Inkarnation und Auferstehung geschehen auf kosmischer wie auf persönlicher Ebene ständig. Und das gilt auch für Leben, Tod und Auferstehung (Regeneration und Reinkarnation), die in kosmischem wie persönlichem Maßstab geschehen. 64. Biophilia or Love of Life is everyone’s daily task. Biophilie oder Liebe zum Leben ist unser aller tägliche Aufgabe. 65. Necrophilia or love of death is to be opposed in self and society in all its forms. Der Nekrophilie oder Todesliebe muß in uns selbst und in der Gesellschaft in allen Formen widerstanden werden. 66. Evil can happen through every people, every nation, every tribe, and every individual human and so vigilance and self-criticism and institutional criticism are always called for. Das Böse kann durch jede Nation, jedes Volk, jeden Stamm und jedes Individuum geschehen. Deshalb sind Wachsamkeit, Selbstkritik und institutionelle Kritik jederzeit gefragt. 67. Not all who call themselves “Christian” deserve that name just as “not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven” (Jesus). Nicht alle, die sich als „Christen“ bezeichnen, verdienen diesen Namen auch, wie auch nicht alle, „die `Herr, Herr´ sagen, ins Himmelreich eingehen werden“ (Jesus). 68. Pedophilia is a terrible wrong but its cover-up by hierarchy is even more despicable. Pädophilie ist ein furchtbares Vergehen, aber ihre Vertuschung durch die Hierarchie ist noch abscheulicher. 69. Loyalty and obedience are never a greater virtue than conscience and justice. Loyalität und Gehorsam sind niemals größere Tugenden als Gewissen und Gerechtigkeit. 70. Jesus said nothing about condoms, birth control or homosexuality. Jesus hat nie etwas über Kondome, Geburtenkontrolle oder Homosexualität gesagt. 71. A church that is more preoccupied with sexual wrongs than with wrongs of injustice is itself sick. Eine Kirche, die sich mehr mit sexuellem Fehlverhalten als mit Ungerechtigkeit beschäftigt, ist selbst krank. 72. Since homosexuality is found among 464 species and in 8 percent of any given human population, it is altogether natural for those who are born that way and is a gift from God and nature to the greater community. Da Homosexualität sich bei 464 Spezies und bei 8 % jeder menschlichen Population findet, handelt es sich bei denen, die so geboren sind, um eine völlig natürliche Sache, um eine Gabe Gottes und der Natur für die größere Gemeinschaft. 73. Homophobia in any form is a serious sin against love of neighbor, a sin of ignorance of the richness and diversity of God’s creation as well as a sin of exclusion. Homophobie ist in jeder Form eine ernste Sünde gegen die Nächstenliebe, eine Sünde gegen den Reichtum und die Vielfalt in Gottes Schöpfung wie auch eine Sünde der Ausgrenzung. 74. Racism, Sexism and militarism are also serious sins. Rassismus, Sexismus und Militarismus sind ebenfalls ernsthafte Sünden. 75. Poverty for the many and luxury for the few is not right or sustainable. Armut für die vielen und Luxus für wenige ist weder rechtens noch nachhaltig. 76. Consumerism is today’s version of gluttony and needs to be confronted by creating an economic system that works for all peoples and all earth’s creatures. Konsumismus ist die zeitgenössische Variante der Genußsucht und muß dadurch nicht Frage gestellt werden, daß ein Wirtschaftssystem aufgebaut wird, das allen Völkern und allen Wesen der Erde dient. 77. Seminaries as we know them, with their excessive emphasis on left-brain work, often kill and corrupt the mystical soul of the young instead of encouraging the mysticism and prophetic consciousness that is there. They should be replaced by wisdom schools. Die Universitäten, wie wir sie heute kennen, mit ihrer extremen Betonung der linken Hirnhälfte, töten und korrumpieren die mystische Seele der Jugend statt das vorhandene mystische und prophetische Bewußtsein zu ermutigen. Sie sollten durch Weisheitsschulen ersetzt werden. 78. Inner work is required of us all. Therefore spiritual practices of meditation should be available to all and this helps in calming the reptilian brain. Silence or contemplation and learning to be still can and ought to be taught to all children and adults. Innere Arbeit ist von uns allen gefordert. Deshalb sollten allen Menschen spirituelle Praktiken und Meditationen zugänglich sein und dabei helfen, das Reptiliengehirn zu beruhigen. Alle Kinder und Erwachsenen sollten Stille oder Kontemplation und Stillwerden lernen. 79. Outer work needs to flow from our inner work just as action flows from non-action and true action from being. Die äußere Arbeit muß von unserer inneren Arbeit ausfließen, so wie Handlung aus dem Nicht-Handeln entsteht und wahres Handeln aus dem Sein. 80. A wise test of right action is this: What is the effect of this action on people seven generations from today? Eine weise Prüfung für rechtes Handeln ist: Wie ist die Wirkung dieser Handlung auf die Menschen der siebten Generation nach uns? 81. Another test of right action is this: Is what I am doing, is what we are doing, beautiful or not? Ein anderer Test für rechtes Handeln ist: Ist meine Handlung, ist unsere Handlung schön? 82. Eros, the passion for living, is a virtue that combats acedia or the lack of energy to begin new things and is also expressed as depression, cynicism or sloth (also known as “couchpotatoitis”). Eros, die Leidenschaft für das Leben, ist eine Tugend, die der Trägheit entgegenwirkt oder dem Energiemangel, Neues zu beginnen, der sich auch als Depression, Zynismus und Faulheit ausdrückt. 83. The Dark Night of the Soul descends on us all and the proper response is not addiction such as shopping, alcohol, drugs, TV, sex or religion but rather to be with the darkness and learn from it. Die dunkle Nacht der Seele befällt uns alle; und die angemessene Antwort darauf besteht nicht in einem Suchtverhalten wie Einkaufen, Alkohol, Drogen, TV, Sex oder Religion, sondern darin, mit der Dunkelheit zu gehen und daraus zu lernen. 84. he Dark Night of the Soul is a learning place of great depth. Stillness is required. Die dunkle Nacht der Seele ist ein Ort sehr tiefen Lernens. Dazu bedarf es der Stille. 85. Not only is there a Dark Night of the Soul but also a Dark Night of Society and a Dark Night of our Species. Es gibt nicht nur eine dunkle Nacht der Seele, sondern auch eine dunkle Nacht der Gesellschaft und eine dunkle Nacht unserer Spezies, der Menschheit. 86. Chaos is a friend and a teacher and an integral part or prelude to new birth. Therefore it is not to be feared or compulsively controlled. Chaos ist ein Freund und Lehrer und ein notwendiger Teil oder ein Vorspiel jeder Neugeburt. Deshalb braucht man es nicht zu fürchten oder zwanghaft zu kontrollieren. 87. Authentic science can and must be one of humanity’s sources of wisdom for it is a source of sacred awe, of childlike wonder, and of truth. Echte Wissenschaft kann und muß eine der Weisheitsquellen der Menschheit sein, denn sie ist eine Quelle heiliger Ehrfurcht, kindlichen Staunens und der Wahrheit. 88. When science teaches that matter is “frozen light” (physicist David Bohm) it is freeing human thought from scapegoating flesh as something evil and instead reassuring us that all things are light. This same teaching is found in the Christian Gospels (Christ is the light in all things) and in Buddhist teaching (the Buddha nature is in all things). Therefore, flesh does not sin; it is our choices that are sometimes off center. Wenn die Wissenschaft lehrt, daß Materie „gefrorenes Licht“ sei (Physiker David Bohm), dann befreit sie damit die Menschheit davon, das Fleisch zum Sündenbock des Bösen zu machen und versichert uns statt dessen, daß alle Dinge Licht sind. Die gleiche Lehre findet sich in den Evangelien (Christus ist das Licht in allen Dingen) und in den buddhistischen Lehren (die Buddha-Natur ist in allen Dingen). Deshalb ist das Fleisch nicht sündig; unsere Entscheidungen sind es, die manchmal an der Sache vorbeigehen. 89. The proper objects of the human heart are truth and justice (Aquinas) and all people have a right to these through healthy education and healthy government. Die angemessenen Ziele des menschlichen Herzens sind Wahrheit und Gerechtigkeit (Thomas von Aquin), und alle Menschen haben ein Recht, mit Hilfe von gesunder Bildung und gesunder Regierung dahin zu gelangen. 90. "God” is only one name for the Divine One and there are an infinite number of names for God and Godhead and still God “has no name and will never be given a name.” (Eckhart) "Gott" ist nur ein Name des Göttlichen. Es gibt unzählige Namen für Gott und die Gottheit, und doch „hat Gott keinen Namen und wird niemals benannt werden“ (Meister Eckhart) 91. Three highways into the heart are silence and love and grief. Drei Wege ins Herz sind die Stille, die Liebe und die Trauer. 92. The grief in the human heart needs to be attended to by rituals and practices that, when practiced, will lessen anger and allow creativity to flow anew. Wir müssen uns mit Hilfe von Ritualen und Übungen um die Trauer im menschlichen Herzen kümmern, die die Wut mindern und die Kreativität wieder in Fluß bringen. 93. Two highways out of the heart are creativity and acts of justice and compassion. Zwei Wege aus unserem Herzen sind die Kreativität und Taten der Gerechtigkeit und des Mitgefühls. 94. Since angels learn exclusively by intuition, when we develop our powers of intuition we can expect to meet angels along the way. Da Engel ausschließlich durch Intuition lernen, können wir bei der Entwicklung unserer intuitiven Kräfte damit rechnen, Engeln zu begegnen. 95. True intelligence includes feeling, sensitivity, beauty, the gift of nourishment and humor which is a gift of the Spirit, paradox, being its sister. Echte Intelligenz umfaßt Gefühle, Sensibilität, Schönheit, die Gabe der Zuwendung und des Humors, der eine Geisteskraft ist, mit der Paradoxie als Schwester.

I understand where your coming from (I think), but liberal theology has an establishment and a body of differing studies. Fundamentalism and the belief that the bible is inerrant is not the only school of thought around. My journey may be as individual (how else can I be true to what I believe), but that should not be read as I am alone. There are many who have walked similar journeys before. See:- http://en.wikipedia....al_Christianity People such as Paul Tillich, John Shelby Spong, Matthew Fox and many others have had to endure much criticism because they stepped outside of the order of others, but they do give some wonderful reading (IMO). See:- http://matthewfoxcs....rticles-of.html (please forgive display of this article but I cannot find another one yet). ( I love article 32 and you can see how Matthew seems to have a differing take on the bible, but no less relevant (IMO). Fundamental Christianity has not the right in my opinion to declare that they hold the only definition of Christianity or that the belief that the bible is inerrant is fundamental to Christianity. There are institutions such as the Quakers, the Roman Catholic church, Anglican church and others who allow the questioning of the bible. For sure, they may not agree with each other, but for them it is faith in God that matters and is central to the faith and not whether a person accepts a book as inerrant. Faith for me is a journey and not an arrival at a given set of dogmas. Jesus stepped out of the order of his time and many questioned him too.

I know Hooka . I am just surprised that people would be so quick to agree with your comment when at another time they would be calling you a condemned sinner for not agreeing with their view point. Like Nestingwave said we do not challenge atheists or agnostics, as the belief is one of spirituality. I do not believe in hell or the devil. I think these were just made up by the church so they could threaten people and blame someone else for what went wrong. As for understanding, I do not see people getting healed in large numbers by any church (no matter what their faith) and this despite Jesus reported to have said they would do this and more. Sure there are occasional unexplained things that happen in medicine but they do not happen to people because they hold a particular faith. They happen because medicine is not all knowing. If the church was that successful then why would we need doctors and why are people not going to them first. I also do not see people having a heart attack call out "is there a preacher in the house". Oh no! they call for a doctor first. I also do not see people rising up and down to heaven in chariots or clouds and as we know now heaven ain't up there and the stars are not held in place by some sort of firmament. I also wonder why there are not records of events (beside the bible) such as describe in Matthew:- 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. I believe much of this is poetic licence. I could go on but the question for me is not whether everything written is a real but are there lessons that can be learned in a spiritual sense. I believe there is, however, I recognise that others may think other wise.

They hold weight because they were in the experience and culture of the people Jesus was speaking too. Jesus only referred to the OT because NT did not exist during his time. The weight is in the meaning of what was is said in the bible and yet, it seems not everything quoted is actually thought to of been said by Jesus. Read:- http://en.wikipedia....i/Jesus_Seminar I would say every church puts their own spin on things. I would say that Jesus never found any church acceptable or not acceptable simply because these churches did not exist at the time of Jesus. Revelations was written later. See:- http://en.wikipedia....k_of_Revelation I have been where you are my friend and found with my studies that there were issues with the bible. Issues that I did not at first gladly accept but I could not and still cannot deny they are there. My journey has been the product of sometimes painful synthesis and I do not think I do not believe the bible because I do not understand or that I intend to write off all of its teachings, but that is not the same as continuing to support the bible as inerrant when that is something that I believe to be a lie. You have your spin on things and I have mine (IMO). It is a question of which spin your prepared to live with based upon our differing journeys.

I guess I see it different to Nestingwave because I have not done the same area of study that he appears to have done. I call myself a Christian because I believe God resided within Jesus and spoke through him. I believe Jesus preached that God can reside within, hence, the meaning of the kingdom of heaven within and also in the future. Jesus never said there would be this collection of books which they will call the bible (which means collection of books) and when it is written you should believe it as if it was spoken by God himself. Jesus is supposed to have said he would send the comforter to guide you and that is something entirely different (IMO). I have struggled often with the name Christian, but not because I do not believe in Jesus, but because I believe the religion of Christianity has become an all controlling movement that prescribes what one shall or shall not believe. For me it it is a bit like (okay I am also a Trekki) the meeting of he Borg and their statement "individuality is meaningless and you will be assimilated" and "life as you know it has creased and you will be part of a collective consciousness". I worry that any revelation that God gives to an individual today would be stifled and processed by the church till it would not exist anymore. I am not saying we cannot learn from the bible but that does not make it the actual word of God. There are some wonderful things in it that I do believe are lessons from God but one should rely on the Spirit of God first. I give you an example:- did you know that the story of Jesus saving the women caught in adultery and saying those without sin cast the first stone was not actually in the earliest writings of John's Gospel. Yet, should they be deleted from the bible because we should be accurate to John's gospel. I would say no, because I believe it to be a wonderful example and lesson of God in action. However, It may or may not have happened. We really do not know. The bible has been changed in differing areas but the question for me, is not whether it is 100% accurate but does it convey the message of the Spirit. I believe in places it does and in places it does not. I believe the Spirit in ones heart will inform a person, not whether a story or writing is accurate of not, but whether it is nourishing to your relationship with God and personal growth in the Spirit. So, does this mean that I do not believe a person should say that they believe every word in the bible is God spoken and inerrant? I would say no, I do not believe that, but I do believe that they should not expect that I and everyone else should follow that or be said to be damned by God for not believing every word of a collection of books. I believe, I should be able to make up my own mind in whatever the Spirit of God leads me. That is where I believe we mainly differ. I do not believe that the 5 fundamental truths (as quoted earlier) are actually fundamental to being a Christian, and I recognise that some do. What I do believe is fundamental is the power of the Spirit of God to work within a person and their personal relationship to God. Whether, another person sees me as a Christian or not a Christian because I do not follow everything prescribed by the religion, is for me a very secondary issue. I do not await their validation. That is between me and God.

You say that and I thought you said you "Absolutely" recognised my faith. That seems shallow to me brother! I may not have a like mind to yours but I still recognise yours.

Beautifully put (IMO).

According to your model of things, but we do not all work from your model of things Dan. If I want to pick up a book and quote it, then that is up to me. I do not need anyone's permission or any religions permission. I have made plain what I feel about some of the writings and therefore I do not feel that hypocrisy comes into it. Nestingwave. Your post makes a lot of sense to me. The Romans wanted a religion to rule people with. Constantine was no Christian by any standard, I know. He was a murderer and a tyrant who only got baptised on his death bed. He was more interested in the luck the symbol of the cross would bring him in battle and how to unify the empire and yet, it was him who made the basis of the religion we have today. Inerrrant, I am sure but only because a person would not live long if they challenged his wishes openly. I liked your post Nestingwave and like you, I was right up with them until I started to read more widely, question things and come to some of my own conclusions. Something that some fear to do and only dare look at what they are told they can (IMO). As for me I do not call that hypocrisy, I call that honesty.

Hi Hooka. I think the question is not standards for me. I do actually believe in some standards and try to live accordingly. The question for me is based on whether the understanding and language of the bible as written a least 2000 yrs ago stands up against understandings we have today. Does one have to stick to an understanding that you believe has been largely invented by Rome or am I free to find my path in the direction that I feel I am being led. Can I debate understandings from people who would talk about the firment under our feet and the firment above the skies, in bible times with today's understandings. Also I question some of the premisses that have (IMO) held up the progress of the faith, but at the same time of doing so, taking care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater (so to speak). I guess it is something that matters to us weirdees.

That seems great to me but what about those who quote 2 Timothy 3:16. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". For some the belief that the bible is the actual word of God is central to anyone who calls themselves a Christian. Hence, my use term of the fundamentalist (which believe it or not I did not personally invent ) :- see http://en.wikipedia..../Fundamentalism The corner stone of fundamentalism is what they call the 5 fundamentals, which are :- The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this. The virgin birth of Christ. The belief that Christ's death was the atonement for sin. The bodily resurrection of Christ. The historical reality of Christ's miracles. I personally would have difficulty with something from all of the above. Hence, my liberal position. I am not inventing the issue. It already exists.

I also find things in the bible that I like to read and things I do not. If one accepts one thing only but not another then they are accused of a pick n mix type of Christianity. There are parts that talk of damnation as there are parts that talk of salvation. If they try to accept all in the bible they are confronted by its inconsistencies. If they swallow a particular dogma from a denomination then they are not challenged by those who also follow that dogma but alienate themselves from those who do not. If they do not believe it then they are seen as sinful. It seems to me that any faith that is based on the bible alone will never please all and therefore It is ill fitting for its said purpose of bringing all people to God. Yet, the changes in the heart of a person are not likely challenged by either party. I believe it is God that works within people but I do not believe that Christians alone are moved by God, and therefore we can see the workings of God throughout the world despite the bible. Micah 6:8 8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

For many in this world, life has given them a bad deal in their developmental years or they are hounded by a psychosis or other problem in life. To say they have had a fair choice is for me a naive statement (IMO). It may make the faith feel better but how realistic is it. The other thing to remember beside those of us who have chosen to follow a Christian path, we are often seen as just another lot of punters trying to push something. It is difficult to choose something when there are so many roads a person can travel and the choice is bewildering. I know we feel Jesus was wonderful but to many he was just another legend, blown out of proportion. Is that rejection of God when people do not see us as anymore significant than just another viewpoint lost in the fog of a universal abundance of differing opinion. i.e. Just one among many. One would think if God wanted to save everyone he would of made the path clearer. The bible has given birth to schism after schism and denomination after denomination. If we cannot agree on the bible then how confusing can it all be for others. In reality for many we do not figure much in their lives, if at all, and we are trying to tell them of a God who created the whole universe and yet, I think I can forgive them for missing the signs that we are so significant with the bible. Call that a choice? pheowy! I am sorry if this seems offensive but I am just giving a personal observation of the bible in action.

You mean I should only ask questions I do not want an answer for? I also bring to the point that you were not so critical of Coolhand's question. I am sure he did not want to know the answer to it and he was just putting us to the test. However, we played that out but in my turn I get criticism. I do not doubt the affect of prayer but we are talking about someone (in the scenario) that is already dead. If prayers affects the out come as to whether a dead person is saved or not then I guess we should not be just quoting scripture to find out who is saved but encouraging everyone with faith to pray for everyone so that there is none passed over. That would seem the loving thing to do (IMO). and something I actually do.

First part:- it is my scenario of a fictional character and therefore I have placed no judgement upon anyone, except to say that some in this world suffer lives that are truly miserable and carry scares that we can only try to imagine. The situation which it seems only Dan (IMO) has spoken about and is according to the bible:- Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:4-5) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." -1 John 5:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." -Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" -Romans 10:13-14 But it seems not everyone:- "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." So I have described a person who had little hope in this life and it would seem according the bible Ken has little hope there. Second part:- As I see it again only Dan has answered the question straight on and I admit I respect him for that. I did not ask that the question be debated. I asked a question in order to get an answer. All this does points to my impression of the bible description of God as likely to be very unfair to someone like Ken . The question I have is do we believe in a loving God or not.