Pete

Sky, that is one you have to answer for yourself. However, I do not believe Jesus died for sins, had a virgin birth or that there is a hell or a devil. For me I believe there is that which is God and that which is not. There is whole lot of things I do not know and I ready to admit that. The thing about being a liberal is I am also free to think and accept it and trust it to God to eventually make sense of it all..

I agree. It is very possible to believe in fundamental things but still be liberal. The defining question is are we content to let God be God or do we claim that we have the only way of knowing God and obtaining his love to the exclusion of all others. If you look at the site I recommended you will see that it says liberals are found in every denomination and why not.

This site explains a lot about Liberal Christianity http://jmm.aaa.net.a...icles/13746.htm

Any discussion that talks about fundamentalism by those who are not fundamentalists is always hotly deputed in my experience. There are many web sites on the web that talk about liberal theology but they prevent any liberal from responding to them. I know that recruiting is not saving people in your definition or any other fundamental church member but do you recruit just for people to attend. No you recruit so they can be saved according their definition. One process is part of the other. Following Christ or being inspired by Jesus is a personal thing (IMO) and I would not recommend anyone telling you what inspires them because I believe all you would do is criticize them. Cause we make mistakes, it is part of growth. Yea what about them Cool. Is God going to punish them over a belief difference and overlook their love?

I find many inspiring things within this document:- Matthew Fox was prevented from preaching and eventually removed from the Catholic Church. He then joined the Episcopalian Church. He stuck with his faith despite his beliefs being refuted by the Pope. 95 Theses or Articles of Faith for a Christianity for the Third Millennium by Matthew Fox. (Published in Yes Magazine. 2006) Like Luther, I present 95 theses or in my case, 95 faith observations drawn from my 64 years of living and practicing religion and spirituality. I trust I am not alone in recognizing these truths. For me they represent a return to our origins, a return to the spirit and the teaching of Jesus and his prophetic ancestors, and of the Christ which was a spirit that Jesus’ presence and teaching unleashed. 1. God is both Mother and Father. 2. At this time in history, God is more Mother than Father because the feminine is most missing and it is important to bring gender balance back. 3. God is always new, always young and always “in the beginning.” 4. God the Punitive Father is not a God worth honoring but a false god and an idol that serves empire-builders. The notion of a punitive, all-male God, is contrary to the full nature of the Godhead who is as much female and motherly as it is masculine and fatherly. 5. “All the names we give to God come from an understanding of ourselves.” (Eckhart) Thus people who worship a punitive father are themselves punitive. 6. Theism (the idea that God is ‘out there’ or above and beyond the universe) is false. All things are in God and God is in all things (panentheism). 7. Everyone is born a mystic and a lover who experiences the unity of things and all are called to keep this mystic or lover of life alive. 8. All are called to be prophets which is to interfere with injustice. 9. Wisdom is Love of Life (See the Book of Wisdom: “This is wisdom: to love life” and Christ in John’s Gospel: “I have come that you may have life and have it in abundance.”) 10. God loves all of creation and science can help us more deeply penetrate and appreciate the mysteries and wisdom of God in creation. Science is no enemy of true religion. 11. Religion is not necessary but spirituality is. 12. “Jesus does not call us to a new religion but to life.” (Bonhoeffer) Spirituality is living life at a depth of newness and gratitude, courage and creativity, trust and letting go, compassion and justice. 13. Spirituality and religion are not the same thing any more than education and learning, law and justice, or commerce and stewardship are the same thing. 14. Christians must distinguish between God (masculine and history, liberation and salvation) and Godhead (feminine and mystery, being and non-action). 15. Christians must distinguish between Jesus (an historical figure) and Christ (the experience of God-in-all-things). 16. Christians must distinguish between Jesus and Paul. 17. Jesus, not unlike many spiritual teachers, taught us that we are sons and daughters of God and are to act accordingly by becoming instruments of divine compassion. 18. Ecojustice is a necessity for planetary survival and human ethics and without it we are crucifying the Christ all over again in the form of destruction of forests, waters, species, air and soil. 19. Sustainability is another word for justice, for what is just is sustainable and what is unjust is not. 20. A preferential option for the poor, as found in the base community movement, is far closer to the teaching and spirit of Jesus than is a preferential option for the rich and powerful as found in, for example, Opus Dei. 21. Economic Justice requires the work of creativity to birth a system of economics that is global, respectful of the health and wealth of the earth systems and that works for all. 22. Celebration and worship are key to human community and survival and such reminders of joy deserve new forms that speak in the language of the twenty-first century. 23. Sexuality is a sacred act and a spiritual experience, a theophany (revelation of the Divine), a mystical experience. It is holy and deserves to be honored as such. 24. Creativity is both humanity’s greatest gift and its most powerful weapon for evil and so it ought to be both encouraged and steered to humanity’s most God-like activity which all religions agree is: Compassion. 25. There is a priesthood of all workers (all who are doing good work are midwives of grace and therefore priests) and this priesthood ought to be honored as sacred and workers should be instructed in spirituality in order to carry on their ministry effectively. 26. Empire-building is incompatible with Jesus’ life and teaching and with Paul’s life and teaching and with the teaching of holy religions. 27. Ideology is not theology and ideology endangers the faith because it replaces thinking with obedience, and distracts from the responsibility of theology to adapt the wisdom of the past to today’s needs. Instead of theology it demands loyalty oaths to the past. 28. Loyalty is not a sufficient criterion for ecclesial office—intelligence and proven conscience is. 29. No matter how much the television media fawn over the pope and papacy because it makes good theater, the pope is not the church but has a ministry within the church. Papalolotry is a contemporary form of idolatry and must be resisted by all believers. 30. Creating a church of Sycophants is not a holy thing. Sycophants (Webster’s dictionary defines them as “servile self-seeking flatterers”) are not spiritual people for their only virtue is obedience. A Society of Sycophants — sycophant clergy, sycophant seminarians, sycophant bishops, sycophant cardinals, sycophant religious orders of Opus Dei, Legioneers of Christ and Communion and Liberation, and the sycophant press--do not represent in any way the teachings or the person of the historical Jesus who chose to stand up to power rather than amassing it. 31. Vows of pontifical secrecy are a certain way to corruption and cover-up in the church as in any human organization. 32. Original sin is an ultimate expression of a punitive father God and is not a Biblical teaching. But original blessing (goodness and grace) is biblical. 33. The term “original wound” better describes the separation humans experience on leaving the womb and entering the world, a world that is often unjust and unwelcoming than does the term “original sin.” 34. Fascism and the compulsion to control is not the path of peace or compassion and those who practice fascism are not fitting models for sainthood. The seizing of the apparatus of canonization to canonize fascists is a stain on the church. 35. The Spirit of Jesus and other prophets calls people to simple life styles in order that “the people may live.” 36. Dancing, whose root meaning in many indigenous cultures is the same as breath or spirit, is a very ancient and appropriate form in which to pray. 37. To honor the ancestors and celebrate the communion of saints does not mean putting heroes on pedestals but rather honoring them by living out lives of imagination, courage and compassion in our own time, culture and historical moment as they did in theirs. 38. A diversity of interpretation of the Jesus event and the Christ experience is altogether expected and welcomed as it was in the earliest days of the church. 39. Therefore unity of church does not mean conformity. There is unity in diversity. Coerced unity is not unity. 40. The Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of working through participatory democracy in church structures and hierarchical modes of being can indeed interfere with the work of the Spirit. 41. The body is an awe-filled sacred Temple of God and this does not mean it is untouchable but rather that all its dimensions, well named by the seven charkas, are as holy as the others. 42. Thus our connection with the earth (first chakra) is holy; and our sexuality (second chakra) is holy; and our moral outrage (third chakra) is holy; and our love that stands up to fear (fourth chakra) is holy; and our prophetic voice that speaks out is holy (fifth chakra); and our intuition and intelligence (sixth chakra) are holy; and our gifts we extend to the community of light beings and ancestors (seventh chakra) are holy. 43. The prejudice of rationalism and left-brain located in the head must be balanced by attention to the lower charkas as equal places for wisdom and truth and Spirit to act. 44. The central chakra, compassion, is the test of the health of all the others which are meant to serve it for “by their fruits you will know them” (Jesus). 45. “Joy is the human’s noblest act.” (Aquinas) Is our culture and its professions, education and religion, promoting joy? 46. The human psyche is made for the cosmos and will not be satisfied until the two are re-united and awe, the beginning of wisdom, results from this reunion. 47. The four paths named in the creation spiritual tradition more fully name the mystical/prophetic spiritual journey of Jesus and the Jewish tradition than do the three paths of purgation, illumination and union which do not derive from the Jewish and Biblical tradition. 48. Thus it can be said that God is experienced in experiences of ecstasy, joy, wonder and delight (via positiva). 49. God is experienced in darkness, chaos, nothingness, suffering, silence and in learning to let go and let be (via negativa). 50. God is experienced in acts of creativity and co-creation (via creativa). 51. All people are born creative. It is spirituality’s task to encourage holy imagination for all are born in the “image and likeness” of the Creative One and “the fierce power of imagination is a gift from God.” (Kaballah) 52. If you can talk you can sing; if you can walk you can dance; if you can talk you are an artist. (African proverb and Native American saying) 53. God is experienced in our struggle for justice, healing, compassion and celebration (via transformativa). 54. The Holy Spirit works through all cultures and all spiritual traditions and blows “where it wills” and is not the exclusive domain of any one tradition and never has been. 55. God speaks today as in the past through all religions and all cultures and all faith traditions none of which is perfect and an exclusive avenue to truth but all of which can learn from each other. 56. Therefore Interfaith or Deep Ecumenism are a necessary part of spiritual praxis and awareness in our time. 57. Since the “number one obstacle to interfaith is a bad relationship with one’s own faith,” (the Dalai Lama) it is important that Christians know their own mystical and prophetic tradition, one that is larger than a religion of empire and its punitive father images of God. 58. The cosmos is God’s holy Temple and our holy home. 59. Fourteen billion years of evolution and unfolding of the universe bespeak the intimate sacredness of all that is. 60. All that is is holy and all that is is related for all being in our universe began as one being just before the fireball erupted. 61. Interconnectivity is not only a law of physics and of nature but also forms the basis of community and of compassion. Compassion is the working out of our shared interconnectivity both as to our shared joy and our shared suffering and struggle for justice. 62. The universe does not suffer from a shortage of grace and no religious institution is to see its task as rationing grace. Grace is abundant in God’s universe. 63. Creation, Incarnation and Resurrection are continuously happening on a cosmic as well as a personal scale. So too are Life, Death and Resurrection (regeneration and reincarnation) happening on a cosmic scale as well as a personal one. 64. Biophilia or Love of Life is everyone’s daily task. 65. Necrophilia or love of death is to be opposed in self and society in all its forms. 66. Evil can happen through every people, every nation, every tribe, and every individual human and so vigilance and self-criticism and institutional criticism are always called for. 67. Not all who call themselves “Christian” deserve that name just as “not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven” (Jesus). 68. Pedophilia is a terrible wrong but its cover-up by hierarchy is even more despicable. 69. Loyalty and obedience are never a greater virtue than conscience and justice. 70. Jesus said nothing about condoms, birth control or homosexuality. 71. A church that is more preoccupied with sexual wrongs than with wrongs of injustice is itself sick. 72. Since homosexuality is found among 464 species and in 8 percent of any given human population, it is altogether natural for those who are born that way and is a gift from God and nature to the greater community. 73. Homophobia in any form is a serious sin against love of neighbor, a sin of ignorance of the richness and diversity of God’s creation as well as a sin of exclusion. 74. Racism, Sexism and militarism are also serious sins. 75. Poverty for the many and luxury for the few is not right or sustainable. 76. Consumerism is today’s version of gluttony and needs to be confronted by creating an economic system that works for all peoples and all earth’s creatures. 77. Seminaries as we know them, with their excessive emphasis on left-brain work, often kill and corrupt the mystical soul of the young instead of encouraging the mysticism and prophetic consciousness that is there. They should be replaced by wisdom schools. 78. Inner work is required of us all. Therefore spiritual practices of meditation should be available to all and this helps in calming the reptilian brain. Silence or contemplation and learning to be still can and ought to be taught to all children and adults. 79. Outer work needs to flow from our inner work just as action flows from non-action and true action from being. 80. A wise test of right action is this: What is the effect of this action on people seven generations from today? 81. Another test of right action is this: Is what I am doing, is what we are doing, beautiful or not? 82. Eros, the passion for living, is a virtue that combats acedia or the lack of energy to begin new things and is also expressed as depression, cynicism or sloth (also known as “couchpotatoitis”). 83. The Dark Night of the Soul descends on us all and the proper response is not addiction such as shopping, alcohol, drugs, TV, sex or religion but rather to be with the darkness and learn from it. 84. The Dark Night of the Soul is a learning place of great depth. Stillness is required. 85. Not only is there a Dark Night of the Soul but also a Dark Night of Society and a Dark Night of our Species. 86. Chaos is a friend and a teacher and an integral part or prelude to new birth. Therefore it is not to be feared or compulsively controlled. 87. Authentic science can and must be one of humanity’s sources of wisdom for it is a source of sacred awe, of childlike wonder, and of truth. 88. When science teaches that matter is “frozen light” (physicist David Bohm) it is freeing human thought from scapegoating flesh as something evil and instead reassuring us that all things are light. This same teaching is found in the Christian Gospels (Christ is the light in all things) and in Buddhist teaching (the Buddha nature is in all things). Therefore, flesh does not sin; it is our choices that are sometimes off center. 89. The proper objects of the human heart are truth and justice (Aquinas) and all people have a right to these through healthy education and healthy government. 90. "God” is only one name for the Divine One and there are an infinite number of names for God and Godhead and still God “has no name and will never be given a name.” (Eckhart) 91. Three highways into the heart are silence and love and grief. 92. The grief in the human heart needs to be attended to by rituals and practices that, when practiced, will lessen anger and allow creativity to flow anew. 93. Two highways out of the heart are creativity and acts of justice and compassion. 94. Since angels learn exclusively by intuition, when we develop our powers of intuition we can expect to meet angels along the way. 95. True intelligence includes feeling, sensitivity, beauty, the gift of nourishment and humor which is a gift of the Spirit, paradox, being its sister.

If you look at the link above you will see that fundamentalism was defined fundamentalists for the purpose of separating themselves from Liberal theology. I know many do not like that label but are we now saying you want to join with liberals. I do not think so.

I also know you believe in preaching what you see as the gospel and bringing people to Christ under your definition. Who is it, that is seen screaming at people that they must be saved and that their sin has condemned them. It ain't liberals. http://en.wikipedia....st_Christianity As for your comment did I know that there are differing types of fundamentalists, but are we not speaking to a particular group of fundamentalists here. I think Hex has answered that one and it has also been debated here a number of times. Despite the quotes from the dictionaries the contention here is that the person declares that they are. I am not going to say they are not and they do not have to justify that to me . That is between them and God.

Well it missed me.. For a fundi it is essential that they recruit because they believe that unless they recruit then people will not be saved. It also essential to a fundi that a certain view of belief is adopted according to which group/denomination they join. For a liberal one takes the first step in a relationship with God. That journey is a personal one. I (IMO) would say that most who become liberals do so when they can no longer digest fundamentalism but they still have a faith in Jesus' life and God, but not all. Some have other views or mixes of viewpoints that would not be tolerated by some churches but find a home in liberalism because people are happy to find God from what ever direction that revelation comes from and see that of God in all. I also would not feel that only one religion has a path to salvation with God. Something that most fundamental churches would not tolerate in my experience.

Cool, now I know your arguing for arguing sake.

For me, I see God in action in differing ways. Despite the killing of 6 million do Jews hate Germans? Despite one of the most repressive racist governments in South Africa was there a vicious back lash by the government who freed them from that repression? Despite the viciousness that the bible belt did on Black Americans, was Martin Luther Kings response to hit back with more viciousness? That is what I see of God's spirit in action. For me one can argue that mankind caused all these and other problems but if we argue for an all powerful God then we have to also say that God allowed these things to occur (IMO). Okay what specifically did you not understand?

I do not recall that. I may use the bible to point out differing things but mostly because that is a language that is being used and the only level of understanding with fundamentalists in my experience. Do you think I would quote this or that to Hex and Fawzo in the same way I do with you. No of course I do not because they have a differing understanding and differing language. exactly and that is why I quote the bible with you. I have read and studied the bible too, but there is not getting away from it we see what we have studied differently. Please elaborate?

Oh very true but I believe in God as a spiritual force and not one of being all powerful and all knowing of materail things. You mention that your God let you down but mine did also as if we talk about two differing Gods. I do not believe we are but we do believe differing things about God. I thought we were reaching an understanding in a small way but I can see by that line of "yours and my God", that we did not. Here we go again. Exactly as I understood it Hex.

You are very free to make of it what you want. What can I do about and why would I want to. The issues come when there is criticism that we are taking only one part of the bible and not other parts as if that is a given for all of us or we are not coming to the same conclusions with debates like its God's will that gay people are condemned and 6 million jews went to their deaths because of their own fault and the bible is the final authority and we should follow that. If you can accept that then maybe we are getting somewhere. Making quotes from the bible without some sort of reasoning behind it and I do not mean because God said it and its in the bible, as that only serves to get up ones nose.

The reader for a liberal and all will find meaning for themselves. The belief that God is the author is a factor for a fundamentalist but not one for a liberal. That is a belief we do not share Cool. We look for meaning from where ever it comes and make connections with it in our personal journey with God.

But God let him..

Me personally Cool, I do not care. You read the text and believe it and I read the text and askwhat does this mean to me. That approach is very different. One is demanding it is so because it is written and the other not insisting it is so but looking for meaning. Me personally Cool, I do not care. You read the text and believe it and I read the text and askwhat does this mean to me. That approach is very different. One is demanding it is so because it is written and the other not insisting it is so but looking for meaning.

I think the point was also discussed that liberals make a connection with a verse rather than insisting that it was God given or that it was God spoken or God demanded. The difference continues with fundamenalism in that your saying Yahweh said this but do you have proof of it. No its something you believe and that is fine (IMO), but that does mean everyone else has too. Hex has said it was a favorate verse for him but I think again we are reading things very differently and I believe your assuming to much of the rest of us from a fundamentalist standpoint which we do not share. So again we are saying 6 million Jews rejected God and thats why they died. Something I really do not believe. I also pointed out other incidents that point to me very clearly that God does not interviene on the basis of some having rejecting him or not. My Father having a stroke has not made one difference to his praying and believing on God but he still has his memory destroyed.

I share much of that too Hex. The idea of God hardening the heart of pharaoh just to heap more pain on the people, the destruction of cities just because they forgot to censure a tribe and bearing in mind the people destroyed had no choice in the matter of census, the destruction by drowning of the whole world and then to suffer pain on the cross to save the whole world and many other things just do not add up for me. The idea of a God who creates the world and all in it but only centres upon one nation of people, the making of laws such as burning witches, and stoning Gay people and requires mankind to carry this out and then teaching forgiveness and that we should not judge others again does not add up. That idea of God for me is one in which the notion of God is being used for political expediency of the then rulers. For me, getting to know God is a journey and not one that is arrived at by the quotes from a book or the determining that ones understanding of God can be forever accurate in the light of further and continuing revelation. That listening to revelation is my understanding of walking with God and not the standing still on the premises of a book and thought only of those in the past. God is living (IMO) and ever grows in the hearts of those listening and cannot be contained in a book. I also like you do not believe God wrote or is the author of any book and just because some one in the past has written something down saying that God is the author does not make a thing so (IMO). God existed before Abraham, Isaac, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and has always spoken to those who listen and God's revelation did not start with the bible or is fully contained within it (IMO).

The tricky thing here my friend is the two languages. According to the "The interlinear NIV Hebrew to English Old Testament" it says and I am sorry I cannot type the Hebrew, but the literal word for word translation as given in the translation is:- "requiring - Yahweh - and what?- good- what - man - to you - he showed- soul of me - sin of- to walk - and to make humble - mercy- and to love - justice - to act - indeed - surely - of you - he sees - and wisdom - he calls - to the city - voice of " It then translates this to:- He showed you, O man, what is good, and what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy with your God. The language is different and so are the rules of sentence make up. I am not saying that it is not a book that has been spliced into Jewish history from somewhere else, as I really do not know, but it could easily still be referring to Yahweh (IMO).. Cool :- how about that creation question about God creating that which he knew would fail him. Answer it with logical argument rather saying the Satan fell from grace (which we have no evidence for) and evil started there. As I see it if God is all knowing then he did not act to stop evil or create so evil would not occur (after all that is what is supposed to happen in the next life is it not). If God is all powerful and does not act in the face of suffering then how is that loving. Its no good (IMO) declaring that it is a war because what war is possible with a so called all powerful God who can stop it before it begins? The trouble is as I see things Cool - Philosophy is out, as is none biblical reasoning and we are then asked to look at the bible objectively. It just sounds so biased to me.

If reading Leviticus and other books I could name and being told that these are the laws directly given of a loving God then I guess we have to have two differing opinions. Are you now saying that philosophers think in order to snare people. I do not believe that is the motive. It is so people can expand their thinking to be much more freer (IMO). Praising Paul's ability to try to be all things to all men (but not women in some cases) I do find sinister. I am sorry about that Cool but I do. Its like a traveling salesman. The end justifies the means and it does not matter what way one goes about it as long as there is a sale. That approach is just not admirable (IMO). Hence, I never buy off pushy salesmen. There are also countless questions I believe you have not answered in these postings but you evaded them and that does not bred trust in me. Love is one thing, trust is another. Its no good asking how am I a liberal and asking me to reject it and accept only your take on things. I just do not agree with it. Sorry if that is a clash with your character but there it is..

I also feel it is foolish to presume that your the one to listen to over the bible. Totally unbiased opinion like. Your committed to proving it right but refuse to recognize for many of us it just does not make sense and contains some things that many of us would not want to be associated with. Infallible would mean it would be inerrant or it would not be infallible. Again I would not say a thing is reliable if one cannot vouch for its inerrancy. Just because a Dud note can be passed of to an unsuspecting shop keeper does not make the note anything but a Dud. To argue that it was accurate when it was first written but one cannot produce what was first written makes no sense and asks me to take it on trust. Something I am not prepared to do. Even so, if all churches of the saints were asking women to be silent it would not inspire me to believe it inspired even if I had the very first copy. Its all a bit like giving your wallet to a stranger and trusting that you will get it back.

I would call that Paul being unprincipled and fake. Handle scripture properly, I guess you mean your way. I also notice that your overlooking the quote about all congregations of the saints silence women in their churches.

Ahh the supernatural argument. Who can say what is supernatural or not. What shape it takes or not and how it interplays. Inerrancy was not invented by Liberals just to pick on fundamentalism. Take the following statements of faith:- Assembles of God "We believe that the Bible (i.e. the Old and New Testaments excluding the Apocrypha), is the inspired Word of God, the infallible, all sufficient rule for faith and practice. http://www.aog.org.uk/pages/17-statement-of-faith/content The Baptists The Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is the record of God’s revelation of Himself to humanity. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error for its matter. It reveals the principles by which God judges us; and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13463.htm Elim Pentecostal Church The Bible - We believe the Bible, as originally given, to be without error, the fully inspired and infallible Word of God and the supreme and final authority in all matters of faith and conduct. http://elim.org.uk/Groups/112249/What_we_believe.aspx Liberals did not make these claims.

Who is deleting parts to make a point. Take 1 Corinthians 14: 33-35 in full and you get :- As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. The context here is that all congregations of the saints do this. For me it is not enough to bend a Christian message to support gender repression whether in private letters or otherwise. Jesus was for all (IMO) equally and not to favour one gender above another. If Paul wrote this to support culture or not then he was not supporting a Christian message (IMO), but one of repression of women. I could switch the same message for Paul's words on slavery to. I personally do not believe Paul said many of these things but then one would have to question whats in the bible and guess your not up for that.

I see the gag. The mental operation based on fundamental principles and none other. To others who use other principles they do seem bewildering. I am convinced that Cool and Dan is going to come back and say that he cannot see a contradiction with any of the above. Cool say he does not believe in an inerrant bible and that its only a tool but then the bible will be always taken as being the absolute authority and defended by fundamentalists. How does that differ from believing in an inerrant bible. That I just do not understand. No offense meant Cool, but I truly do not.