Pete

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Everything posted by Pete

  1. I tried to post but the found the forum went down yesterday. Back now. So Paul would have distanced himself from :- 1 Timothy 2:11-15:"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent..." (NIV) Ephesians 5:22-24: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife...wives should submit to their husbands in everything." (NIV) 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "...women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (NIV) 1 Corinthians 11:7-9:"For a man...is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head." (NIV) But then fundamentalist claim Paul wrote all these sayings.
  2. I am sure if you read the articles then it would be obvious. The General picture is Jesus was seen as inclusive and respectful of women but the bible and Paul appears contradictory and sometimes incredibly disrespectful of women (IMO).
  3. I ask myself is this in the spirit of God's love and the God experience that I have. It has to make sense to me and I do not accept a thing just because its in the Bible. Well tell me something that you do not believe in the bible? Tell me also that you see an issue between what Jesus did and scripture and what Paul is said to have said. Take a topic like women and gender equality. Jesus on Women:- http://www.religioustolerance.org/cfe_bibl.htm Bible on Women:- http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm Paul on Women:- http://www.religioustolerance.org/nfe_bibl.htm
  4. Liberals often see that so called research by fundamentalists as jumping through hoops and chasing ones tail to try and prove a point. A bit like a second hand car salesman. However, that just makes me suspicious and more doubting of fundamentalists as a source of truth. But that concept is only seen by you. Who says one cannot take what has meaning and disregard the rest. Oh! yes, fundamentalists. Cool your view only works if I accept that the whole bible is the work of God and all is edible. The trouble is I do not and neither do many other liberals. I see the continuing demand that I should take it all whether I really agree with it or not as a controlling action by fundamentalists. I recognize that my challenging the bible is seen as a direct challenge to what you and fundamentalists believe but what can I do. I have to be true to myself. I just do not believe in an inerrant bible and you do. Well yes, that is what it is reported as what Paul said but I have more respect for Paul Tillich then I do for the so called apostle Paul and I do not believe my faith is useless.
  5. That is the fundamental concept of things. I would say that the writers of the books of the bible were inspired from what they heard and experienced of God but that is not the same as being inspired writers writing directly from God. I know that is the claim in differing parts of the bible but that does not mean (IMO) that it therefore is inspired directly from God.. If there was a direct link between scripture and God then I believe there would be no contradictions but that is the crunch, in that fundamentalist say they cannot see them but liberals can. For me even if Jesus did die and was not resurrected then Jesus would still inspire me and others. For some like Paul Tillich who reported to say his faith would remain intact even if they could prove Jesus never existed. I think that is understandable for what better fact or myth can teach one of God (IMO).
  6. I think God is God then and now but the concept of God has changed within the faith from:- Polytheists _God being one of many Gods.(http://en.wikipedia....mitic_religion) then to Henotheist - There are other Gods but God is more superior to others ( Exodus 15:11 ""Who is like You among the gods, O LORD? Who is like You, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders? NIV.) to Monotheism - there is no other God but God. (Mark 12:32 "There is one God; and there is none other but he") Which is the modern concept of things within Judaism, Islam and Christianity. http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Monotheism Paul also it appears drew on the concept of God in others cultures being the same, in some cases, in his saying in Acts 17:23 "For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you".
  7. El. The word El () appears in Assyrian (ilu) and Phenician, as well as in Hebrew, as an ordinary name of God. It is found also in the South-Arabian dialects, and in Aramaic, Arabic, and Ethiopic, as also in Hebrew, as an element in proper names. It is used in both the singular and plural, both for other gods and for the God of Israel. As a name of God, however, it is used chiefly in poetry and prophetic discourse, rarely in prose, and then usually with some epithet attached, as "a jealous God." Other examples of its use with some attribute or epithet are: El 'Elyon ("most high God"), El Shaddai ("God Almighty"), El 'Olam ("everlasting God"), El Ḥai ("living God"), El Ro'i ("God of seeing"), El Elohe Israel ("God, the God of Israel"), El Gibbor ("Hero God"). The commonly accepted derivation of this name from the Hebrew root , "to be strong," is extremely doubtful. A similar root has been explained from the Arabic as meaning "to be in front," "to be foremost," "to lead," "to rule," which would give the meaning "leader," "lord." But the fact that the e in El was originally short, as seen in such proper names as Elkanah, Elihu (), and in the Assyrian "ilu," is strong evidence against this derivation. As in the case of Elohim, it is necessary to admit that the original meaning is not certainly known. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N
  8. Ah! it was late.Sorry but the point is further made:- See also :- http://www.jstor.org/pss/673271 However, it suggests the name EI was used in earlier times for God . However, what origins Yahweh may of had is difficult as YHWH is not a name, its a description. I am who I am. Various terms for God:- EL (Gen 33:20) EL Elyon (the most high) (Psalms 73:11) El Olam (the everlasting God) (Gen 21:33) El shaddai (God Almighty) (Gen 17:1) El ro-i (the God who sees me of the God of vision) (Ex 6:3) The Historical Deception by Moustafa Gadalla. Bastet Pub, USA.
  9. An interesting site for me on the topic is :- http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Yahweh It seems to support Fawzo view and I have seen other sites that also make links with other cultures. Phone books maybe not inerrant but I believe the bible is also not inerrant.
  10. What can I say, Perhaps we will get the phone directory next..
  11. Nice try Dan. Firstly I would not say that all liberals are apathetic about the bible, they just do not but the same emphasis upon it as fundamentalists do and do not interprete it in the same way. We see contradictions and some evil things said about God which when contrasted with other saying about God do not make sense. We are very often confused as to why fundamentalists keep supporting the idea of an inerrant bible when there are such glaring discrepancies that we can see. To be apathetic one needs to believe something needs acting upon but then not wish to do anything about it. That is not true of liberals as we just do not accept the fundamentalist position and therefore do not see the need to act on fundamentalism. God's so called anger is irrational to many liberals, like the destruction of cities just because they messed up a census in the time of David or the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart just so he can heap more persecution upon the Egyptian people.Yes, most liberal are turned of by things like that. Well, no because God is said to be all powerful and therefore did not need to kill anyone. Also it is a fact that most German people did not know this was going on and found it hard to believe after they found out and therefore why would their be a need to persecute all German people for what happened. The position of fundamentalism just does not appear rational in most liberal peoples eyes. That is the issue and it is not one of apathy.
  12. and the significance of this was?
  13. And you meant what by the line -- "Yeah, I like that. I think that pretty much summs it up. Ever wonder why specifically the title "LORD" is used there? As opposed to God, or LORD God, or Lord." As for the comment on love. Have you never been cross with someone you love?
  14. Firstly the reason why the subject was started was to talk about liberal Christianity and I do not believe it is up to you to say what should or should not be on this forum. Also your making a play on the word "Lord" as if Micah could of possibly made this as reference to Jesus. I do not think you will find many Jews that would support that assertion. It is just a Fundy play on words, as far as I am concerned and an attempt to make out of it more than what exists. Remember Jesus was a Jew and also used the word "Lord" in reference to God according to the book. As for the condescending comments and dig at our fellowship Well all I can say is we do not have to all go to fundy churches for that and I am personally very grateful for that. A few words about how only the fundy group is going to be saved. A smattering of neologisms from someone who claims they are speaking another language, but no can say what language. An emphasis on sin and how awful we all are in God's eyes. A talk about God's love and his need to crucify his only son as the only way in his royal stubbornness he can forgive anyone. A whip up into a frenzy with a few rousing songs and everyone leaves feeling that they are sure grateful that God even bothers with them. Yes, I will sure miss that.. I am sorry, I know that is sarcasm.. The point is Cool your not the only one who can do condescending and rubbish another beliefs. Maybe its best to not use this approach..
  15. I think you have missed the point I was making Dan. Fundamentalism is based on the belief that there are fundamental things that one should believe (hence, they are fundamentalists). Although Christian fundamentalists differ, as you say, they mostly agree on the following:- Inerrancy of the ScripturesThe virgin birth and the deity of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14)The doctrine of substitutionary atonement by God's grace and through human faith (Hebrews 9)The bodily resurrection of Jesus (Matthew 28)The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming), e.g. healing,[6] deliverance,[7] and second coming[8]http://en.wikipedia....st_Christianity These are known as the 5 fundamentals. Liberals do not insist that there are fundamental things a person must believe and although Liberal Christians may disagree with some or all of the above they see their personal relationship with God as the most important factor in their faith. Liberals look upon the bible as the writings of people inspired by their faith in God but not the inerrant word of God. So if I quote the bible I am not doing so in a way that says that this is a given, but I am only pointing out that I personally have made a connection with something it may say in the bible or elsewhere.
  16. During my long experience in Nursing I once worked on a children's ward, which treated young children with brain cancers. I witnessed a lot of pain and suffering and it still bothers me years after. Yes, some did recover inexplicably but they were few and far between and were not of any particular faith. I witnessed another older lady who was a strong christian who prayed and had been prayed over many times and she eventually grew weary of having to suffer and undergo the constant need for corrective surgery. She eventually decided not to eat and drink and died at her own choice I have seen people with mental health issues who struggle most of their life by nightmares and the hearing of voices in their head that do not go away. Sure the drugs made it easier but as everyone who has to take drugs knows that comes at a price. I have witnessed many die over the years in hospital and I have seen a lot of suffering. Sure I pray for them. Sometimes that is all you can do. All it has left me with was a feeling of oh! God why do you allow this. I just do not understand God in the biblical terms. It just does not make sense to me. You mention a few times that you think liberals think this or that but that is to miss what the word liberal means. Liberals are not into defining what we all must believe like fundamentalists do. Hence they are liberals. There is no universal creed for liberals and each makes their own journey and walk with God. However, there are parts of the bible that many (but not all) do make a connection with:- Micah 6 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. John 4:16-18 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Luke 10:25-28. And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to receive eternal life?" What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you understand it?" He answered, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.'(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.' " "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do that, and you will live.". Oh! and before one starts by asking how come some accept this part of the bible and not others the answer is because it makes a connection with their path and journey with God. Speaking for me to punish all for not using the name of Jesus is not love, it is a dictatorship and and has little to do with loving people (IMO).
  17. Look Cool, I can accept a prayer request as an act of compassion as I can those who say they send me energies or well wishes. The thing that I think that has upset people is the statement " Let's do this, together. If you object to committing to daily prayer for these needs expressed, please state why. " It does sound condescending and school teacher like and quiet frankly I would not want prayers or giving of energies or well wishes under such term. Hex, Fawzo, Rev Rainbow,Tsukino Rei, Dan, and you, and many others on the forum, are compassionate people and I am know that all care and in that I do not want people put on the spot and asked to explain themselves. Anyway, I used the situation to add emphasis of a point and I am sure others have similar events in their lives that they could use too. I personally pray for all and I am sure others will do what seems right for them. Request or not..
  18. I appreciate the prayers of others and I admit I am in pain over it, but I will stick to my point. Its not enough to quote this or that and say it gives hope. It does not (IMO). What gives me hope is the belief that this (life now) is not all there is and that hope is something from my personal journey and not because it is quoted in the bible. It is not the mark of a loving all powerful God as described in the bible to create and to not intervene in the suffering that is caused by what has been created. My problems are minute compared with many in this world and that suffering is great on some. The hope that exists is not from quotes or a belief on a book but a spiritual belief. If God has to be measured by creation then all I have to say is what a cruel God. If God is measured by the spiritual influence on things then I can see an influence, even if I do not always see many of the problems that exist on this world changing very soon. For me the spirit is like this. If rain falls on a plant in the desert, then it grows and thrives, but that has not changed the fact that the plant is an hostile environment in the desert. Like the rain it is on a spiritual level that I see interventions by God. On the material side of things I am stuck with the question "why". That why is based on why an all powerful loving God as the bible describes could not create what he wanted in the first place and save us from all this suffering. Why has there been so little intervention and why judge people on the basis of a single belief , when good people are found in every creed and belief in the world. Yes, and why did 6 million Jews have to die and so many others have to die to stop that and other evils of the war. For me to say its because they did not call out in Jesus' name is heartless and unworthy of any loving God.
  19. You know something Cool. I have nursed the sick most of my life and in my experience there is no better out come from those who had faith and those who did not. Lets also talk about glory with something real that I have witnessed. My parents have prayed to Jesus and in Jesus' name and worshiped God all their lives. My father has recently had a stroke and does not know where he is or remember my mothers name despite seeing her. My mother has fibrosis of the lungs that will eventually kill her but meanwhile she is being dogged by cancer. So now, you tell me that all will be well if we pray through Jesus' name and there is hope, but hell mate, I have to say I do not feel it at present. Do I feel like glorifying the biblical god and believing all is okay in Jesus' name? Put yourself in my place and tell me you would feel hope and lets not forget the churches that prayed over me to heal my disability and blamed my parents for not having enough faith when I was not healed. Well you want it real and real you have got it. All I hear is rhetoric but unfortunately Cool, in the real world rhetoric does not answer questions.
  20. You have explained your opinion and lectured me but like I have say before it makes only sense to you. Firstly, God, if all powerful, could have created what he wanted in the first place and prevented evil from existing right form the beginning but neglected to to so. It is not an argument (IMO) to just say good has allowed evil to exist to give us a choice because it seems God did not want us to avail ourselves of that choice and how is it good to allow evil when it is in your power to stop it and not create it in the first place. Secondly, You may say you believe the bible to be inerrant but so far you have failed to supply a convincing argument that it is. You say you have explained adequately but your the only one convinced of that. I feel you just lectured me with opinion and without evidence or convincing argument. I do not believe that is adequate..
  21. So your saying an all powerful God is a merciless tyrant who will not lift a finger to save men, women, and children going to the gas chambers in millions unless they use the name Jesus and fast. Hardly a God worth praying too is it? Sounds like a bureaucratic egomaniac insisting one must have the right paperwork or they will not get help to someone who is dying. None of this however, answers the question about God. God knew what he created and knew what it would do and then moaned about it and blamed that which he created for the error. All this points to me, is the biblical description of God is a bit like Mr Bean with attitude.
  22. So your saying that the reason 6 million Jews were slaughtered by evil Nazi psychos were because they forgot to pray to God to ask him to stop it. Sorry Cool I just do not buy that. I am definitely sure the Jews prayed long and hard about the persecution they were receiving and it still did not stop so many of them dying in the death camps.
  23. I do not want to challenge your belief (some of which I am sympathetic too) but again appears based on the premise that the bible is based on fact. You start with the statement that God originally asked for sacrifices as described in the bible and lead on to the need for Jesus to be sacrificed. Well lets look at that. The Jews used to sacrifice things but I do not see that happening today and they mostly do not believe in Jesus or his teachings. What influenced them? It cannot be that they were influenced by the death of Jesus as a sacrifice once and for all. I suspect that people develop and grow in their faith and whatever happened in the past, not all is acceptable to modern thought and that has more to do with the stopping of sacrifices. Heck! I would hate the job of a priest who used to have to sacrifice every thing all day. According to Micah 6:8 " He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. (NIV) ", a verse that I find pretty profound but that was spoken before Jesus can along and also the following verses were spoken by Jews long before Jesus came along too. Jeremiah 7:22-23 22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23"But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.' Psalm 40:6 6Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required. Psalm 51:15-17 15 O Lord, open my lips, That my mouth may declare Your praise. 16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it; You are not pleased with burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise. I believe this is because the Jewish faith has grown since the early days. This happens in Christianity too. No more do you get people crying out for the killing of a witch. All I can say is a thanks that we do grow and do not always use the past as shackles in our faith.
  24. Do you know Cool, I have not a clue whether they all existed or not, however, one thing I feel certain of is that they have been surrounded in myth and portrayed as individuals capable of performing thngs that no other human (and I include you in that) of today can do. For me, some of the events in the bible maybe true and some I very much doubt. The trouble is as I see it, it is difficult to say what is true when so much has been ornamented with such fantastic premises. I mean you try walking on water. As for needing to have answers I feel that is something that most people have but that does not mean in anyway that I will swallow just about any answers just because I have a need an answer. Sometimes one suspends not knowing until something sounds more plausible. I believe that most of the problems of this world has been started with someone believing that they are the only ones with the truth and therefore every one else should believe as they do. If being a Christian means I have to swallow the whole bible as a book of truth then I guess I would call myself a non Christian and a Jesus follower, because I just cannot swallow that. As Fawzo has said there are some terrible things portrayed about God in the bible and I personally would not want to associated with the description given by the bible. For me the idea of a god who would drown the whole world and then be prepared to die to save everyone shows a complete inconsistency. Regarding my question that I believe you have not answered. It is not enough (IMO) to say that you understand the will of God and then dismiss the question by saying that is up to God with no further explanation that can proven and are not based in hearsay or myth. Somethings may or may of not happened in that past but I do not believe the bible is in anyway proof that they did occur. Blaming all on Satan is a great cop out (imo) but one still then has to acknowledge who it is who created Satan and is allowing Satan (in you description) to reek havoc and refuses to prevent this until some unknown time (perhaps after an extended tea break) in the future. Then you ask me to put confidence in God as described in the bible as being loving. As for the message of the bible I would agree with Fawzo's statement "An Omniscient Deity who has to kill and sacrifice a portion of himself, to appease himself, for something he himself is complicit and responsible for."
  25. For me there are lessons that can be learned from the bible but the idea of the bible being inerrant is something I cannot swallow. Fundamental theology just hangs on repetition (IMO) and the hanging on to principles which I find unfounded but at the same time deliberately being blind to anything that may challenge their stance on the bible. You may say I am confused and misusing the bible but that is exactly what I think of fundamentalism. If remaining with questions means I am being truthful to my self then I will remain with questions rather than resorting to rhetoric and trying to fool myself into believing that the problems of an inerrant bible do not exist. Beside your assertion that you feel I am flawed and misusing the bible, you still have not answered my question. How come an all powerful and loving God as described by the bible does not prevent suffering and according to the bible is aware all this would happen before he created it. Throwing ever increasing complexities based on further myth is not going to move me from the inescapable question that I witness each day I live..