Pete

The argument against the biblical concept of God goes:- If god is all powerful and does not stop suffering then God cannot be said to be loving. If God is all knowing and ignores suffering then God is not loving. If God created all and imperfection grows from it then God cannot of made a perfect world. If God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then why make it accessible (Even humans know of health and safety and most parents know to keep dangerous objects away from their children and especially those we love). If God knows the outcome of what he/she is testing then why test, especially when such testing creates many to suffer greatly (if God does not know the out come then he/she is not all knowing and if God chooses to ignore this knowledge then he/she cannot be said to be all knowing). If the bible is the word of God and it for all to believe on it then how is it written so badly. Few people reject the bible because the are sinful but because it does not stand up to their reasoning and if this is so then why judge people, surely the option would be to make it all the more clearer. If God is all powerful then why does God need mankind to write the bible and why does God need mankind to spread its news (surely God would have better ways at his/her disposal and if not then is God then either inefficient or incompetent). I am sorry Dan but in my experience the dividing line is not a sinful nature of a person but the inability to accept reasoning of the bible. If that is so then the blame must rest squarely with God's explanation as expressed in the bible, which For many is neither simple or clear.

I have also scrutinized my beliefs closely, and I have also found them to be believable. I think that if I asked a devout Muslim if he/she had scrutinized his/her Islamic beliefs, that Mulim would probably say that he/she had found them to be believable. I would probably get the same answer from a devout Parsi, Buddhist, Jew, etc. That is why we have so many religions. Hermano Luis Moriviví Hermitage Something that is believable is not necessarily the truth. It is amazing how many things people take for granted that turn out to be untrue. That is one of the reasons I have respect for those who describe something as their belief rather than tell everyone that their belief is the only true one. Something they can not prove to anyone but themselves (IMO).

It is an oddity that the word church referring to a gathering of religious people has become a word that has for many in modern usage become to mean a Christian only body. :- http://ardictionary.com/Church/5625 The title Universal life Church should have been a clue that we believe in the Universal Life, but our friend who made this error is unlikely to be the last one to do so. Hopefully he will find the confidence to come back and discuss the ways in which we are all different, but remain united. We may argue over this and that and yet, we also defend each person right to be here, but also recognize on the forum that no one faith or opinion take residence over everyone Else's. I actually hope the savedintheson comes back and takes the time to learn more about us all. It may seem very strange at first but as many here (of all views) will testify it is very worth the pursuing.

I teach relaxation techniques. I sometimes use guided visualization. If I say that a person begin to relax themselves slowly throughout the body and imagine that the stresses are flowing out of the body through ones feet then I am using a guided visualization. If I say that ones body is too full of energy and that they need to imagine themselves letting it flow through their body, through their feet and back into the earth then I am using a Wicca technique. If I say that ones need to give their fears to God and that they picture themselves giving all their stresses to God and one slowly releases them from themselves and relax then I am using a form of prayer. The affect is the same but the language is accommodating the persons personal terms of reference. That is often the issue in many ways (IMO). When ones fears the other they very often hear the language but not the message and in that I believe so much misunderstanding is founded..

Nicely Put (IMO).

Listen my friend. This is a church. A Universal Church and it is what it says on the tin. You can leave and no one will stop you , but I have to say that you are passing up a wonderful opportunity to learn from and about others and their faiths. If you love as the bible says you must then I recommend that you start learning from people here rather than judging them. The bible says blessed are the peace makers and I believe strongly that one does not make peace by trying to get everyone to comply with just your take on things. Sure you can leave, but I recommend that you see this forum as a place of learning. For starters:- Talking about satan does not do much here as most of us do not believe satan exists (although some do) and Wiccans do not worship or believe in satan either. So refering to wiccans as works of satan is really going to be a big turn off. I will tell you also that I am fortunate to have friends who are wiccan and I believe they can teach a lot about loving one another. Just remember that a few self righteous so called Christians used to torture and kill witches at one time and not everyone who uses the name of Jesus are loving people. I recommend that you stay a while and listen rather than making up your mind so quickly about people. You may find that they can teach you a lot about what it is to be human and to love.. You may find that after a while, like me, that one becomes proud to know people here and to be part of such a wonderful and Universal church.

Which she was paying for.

31Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. 32So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands. 33And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. 34And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. 35And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. 36And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon. 37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows. 38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains. 39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, 40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year. Sorry Dan but I think your clutching at words in order to avoid the whole text. Why Lament someone who lives. Why Israel lamenting four times a year and not his own daughter. I do not think you have made your case Dan but even if you did, I would ask why has the father the right to decide on his daughter's virginity and life. I still find it sickening...

The usual cause of pain at the change of the weather is down to inflammation (which aspirin has an affect as its an anti-inflammatory drug) and things like glocosamine and fish oils are thought helpful in this area. If one has a swelling, it is noticed that it can get more painful when hot and sometimes cold (just like the weather), and often the answer is to give the swelling the opposite to what triggers it. Hot water bottles for heat and a bag of frozen peas does well for cold. Also you are right in what you say about migraine and the weather. I get it without the headaches, usually when I am tired and feeling stressed. It can be triggered by differing things for differing people. My Father used to have to avoid cheese as this usually triggered his migraine (unfortunately he did get the headaches)..

Is the pain in ones joints or muscles? Have you tried Glucosamine Sulphate 1500mgs for your joints. It helped me with some of my knee issues. see:- http://altmedicine.a...Glucosamine.htm If it is more the muscles then have you tried fish oil? see:- http://altmedicine.a.../rheumatoid.htm --------- Many things are put down to age as if they have no answer. It usually means the medical team need a bit more pestering. A consultant doctor I know used to tell a joke to his understudies. A lady went to the doctor and said I have pain in my right knee. The doctor said "it is your age" The lady said "How can it be. My left knee is just as old and I do not have pain in that". The moral of the story is that they should not be so dismissive of people. You will be in my prayers my friend.

Pardon me Dan but it says:- Judges, Chapter 11:30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." 36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry." 38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

True. However, it just goes to show how dangerous it was be related to some people in those days and the mindset of their times. Something I do not see any perfection in. I wonder just how many people sacrificed their own children to this nonsense (IMO). I do not believe Abraham attempt to sacrifice Isaac was the only example of this. See:- Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." * Exodus 22:28-30 (NIV) 28 "Do not blaspheme God or curse the ruler of your people. 29 "Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. "You must give me the firstborn of your sons. 30 Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day". *although later versions have changed the meaning of consecrate from sacrifice to "redeem" but it seems Leviticus does not agree with this:- Leviticus 27:28-29, the Lord allows for no redemptions. "Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death."

I have mentioned some of those earlier but they are easy to find. Here's a few more:- Exodus 21:12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death". Do it matter whether it was an accident? Leviticus 21:16-23 16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the offerings made to the LORD by fire. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the LORD, who makes them holy." Leviticus 12:1-5 Quotes God as stating that a woman who has given birth to a boy is ritually unclean for 7 days. If the baby is a girl, the mother is unclean for 14 days. "If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days...But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks..." Leviticus 27:6 A child aged 1 month to five years of age was worth 5 shekels if a boy and 3 shekels if a girl. "And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver." In Numbers 27:8-11, Moses describes the rules of inheritance that God has stated. If a man dies, his son inherits the estate; his daughter gets nothing. Only if there is no son, will his daughter inherit. If there are no children, then the estate is given to the man's brothers; his sister(s) get nothing. If he had no brother, the estate goes to his nearest male relative. "...If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter. And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren. And if he have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his father's brethren. And if his father have no brethren, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his kinsman that is next to him of his family...." Deuteronomy 21:10-13 describes how a soldier can force a woman captive to marry him without regard for her wishes. "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife." Deuteronomy 22:28-29 requires that a virgin woman who has been raped must marry her attacker, no matter what her feelings are towards the rapist. "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife...." See:- for more:- http://www.religious...rg/ofe_bibl.htm Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." Judges, Chapter 11:30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." 32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon. 34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." 36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry." 38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. What God would want this? I find it all very scary and unloving and unjust..

You said it again that you did not see anything wrong with the death penalty. I do not care that you said Jesus did away with it or not, what matters is you believe that this OT penalty was instructed by God. I give you an example. Say we live in OT times and say your neighbor is in an abusive relationship and distressed to the point she seeks the support of someone else who makes her feel that she is loved. They get found out and the penalty was be stoned. Are you saying you would feell righteous to crush her skull with stones just because the law said so and the law is said to be of God.. I also do not care whether it says that the circumcision was an important sign, we are saying we should hack off her hand for trying to rescue you and in doing so struck your assailants private parts. A gay man finds a love that fulfills him in a way that no other relationship ever has and you feel it would have been right to stone him in OT times. A girl (the daughter of a priest) runs away from her over bearing father and turns to prostitution as the only way to survive and you would feel it right that she should be burned alive. (I am not trying to make excuses for people but this is how in the real life things happen) What bothers me is that you feel this is alright if we lived in OT times just because a book says it is and you do not see that there is any need to question that.. I also do not understand how you see the same God who would die for others and the cause of love rather than condemn, would makes such laws. I also do not understand how it is that you do not see these laws as evil and are not of a loving God..

You said you see nothing wrong with the death penalty for none believing after I gave you a quote that says God recommended killing those who change their faith in OT times. The other thing that struck me was that the person the bible says is to kill none believers and is also recommending others do it in the OT, is also said to be agape with love. I know you did not want to tackle some of the other quotes, like having to hack off ones wife's hand if she came to rescue you from an attacker and happened to hit the assailant in the private parts. Show her not pity it says. Such so called righteous laws, I can do without, my friend..

Well it is nice to know that from your loving heart that you think that all who disagree with you should be killed and you agree with people killing them. Does not the love and wonderfulness of the many members here from all persuasions touch your emotions even a little? I would have thought that if you really loved people then you would of a the very least not want them to be killed by anyone and would see it as a great evil. From my perspective, I would say that anything less, would mean ones love for others was really a lie..

So God had nothing to do with the following?:- Deuteronomy 13:6-11 (New International Version) 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. Leviticus 25:44-46 (New International Version - UK) 44 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Leviticus 15:19-24 (New International Version - UK) 19 'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. 20 'Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 22 Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening. 24 'If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean. Exodus 35:2 (New International Version - UK) 2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Exodus 22:18 (New International Version) 18 "Do not allow a sorceress to live. Deuteronomy 17:12 (New International Version) 12The man who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the LORD your God must be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel. Leviticus 20 (New International Version) 9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. 10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' " Exodus 21:15 (New International Version) 15 "Anyone who attacks [a] his father or his mother must be put to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21 (New International Version) (must be a virgin at her wedding) 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you. Leviticus 21:9 (New International Version) 9 " 'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. Deuteronomy 25 (New International Version) 5 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. 6 The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel. 7 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother's wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, "My husband's brother refuses to carry on his brother's name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me." 8 Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, "I do not want to marry her," 9 his brother's widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, "This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother's family line." 10 That man's line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled. 11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity. I could go on....

Dan you keep repeating verses as if they have meaning for me but they do not. It still comes down to your interpretation being that God created an evil set of laws (IMO) but then wanted someone to die a cruel death just to appease his judgmental and harsh nature. This is not good news for me but the chants of a tyrannical bully (something I do not believe God is). Plus Jesus and the law:- The law says:- Leviticus 11:7-8 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you. Deuteronomy 14:8 And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase Yet, Jesus preached:- Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Mark 7:18-20 "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' ------------------------------------ Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink. John 2:7-9 & Mark 14:25 Jesus not only drank wine he created it for others to drink. ----------------------------------------- Exodus <a href="http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/2435/eVerseID/2435" target="_parent">31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Mark 2:27 Jesus was a Jew but laboured on the sabbath. "Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath". ------------------------------------------ and on you other point about Jesus being the law:- The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6 The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation Matt 5:17-19 See also :- http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm However, that said the bible does say:- Matt 22:37 -40 "37 Jesus replied, " `You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind." 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 A second is equally important: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 40 All the other commandments and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments."" Which is something I am happy to accept, but partly because it undermines much of the evils of the OT law that asks us to kill people.

In the UK there used to be two main parties, the Conservatives and the Liberals. The Labour party was a break away from the Liberal party. The original names for each Party was the Whigs (Liberals) and the Tories (Conservative). Although the meaning of each word seems innocent in the present day the names were both derived from old words that were terms of abuse. The origins of the name "Whig" was derived from the term given to horse thieves and the name "Tory" was originally used for a thief. So, we can see from this that the UK government is made up of horse thieves and Robbers. Do not believe me? then see:- Whig members of two opposing political parties or factions in England, particularly during the 18th century. Originally "Whig" and "Tory" were terms of abuse introduced in 1679 during the heated struggle over the bill to exclude James, duke of York (afterward James II), from the succession. Whig-whatever its origin in Scottish Gaelic-was a term applied to horse thieves and, later, to Scottish Presbyterians; it connoted nonconformity and rebellion and was applied to those who claimed the power of excluding the heir from the throne. Tory was an Irish term suggesting a papist outlaw and was applied to those who supported the hereditary right of James despite his Roman Catholic faith. http://dictionary.re...com/browse/whig Tory 1566, "an outlaw," specifically "a robber," from Ir. toruighe "plunderer," originally "pursuer, searcher," from O.Ir. toirighim "I pursue," related to toracht "pursuit." About 1646, it emerged as a derogatory term for Irish Catholics dispossessed of their land (some of whom subsequently turned to outlawry); c.1680 applied by Exclusioners to supporters of the Catholic Duke of York (later James II) in his succession to the throne of England. After 1689, Tory was the name of a British political party at first composed of Yorkist Tories of 1680. Superseded c.1830 by Conservative, though it continues to be used colloquially. In American history, Tory was the name given after 1769 to colonists who remained loyal to George III of England. http://dictionary.re...com/browse/tory It is likely that the US terms "conservative" and "liberal" originated from the same parties that existed in Britain before US independence. So if you suspected you were ruled by thieves too, then there is your evidence.

I think the qualifier here is - it seems easier for you but not for me. We are asked to believe that a man flogged till his skin laid open, crippled with the weight of the cross as he walked to his death and then hanging from his very flesh with lungs filling up with fluid and grasping at every breath, is having conversations with all and quoting psalms. This not to mention the later confusing accounts of the resurrection. I personally do not buy into the belief that God wanted such an evil death, just to please himself that his so called brutal laws did not go down well. Jesus was rebellious and challenged a number of scriptural laws because they did not fit with his view of love. I believe he did die for love of people. He could have easily lived a quiet and peaceful life and avoided the whole affair. I believe it is in this we see the true love of Jesus. However, I recognise that you will see it differently...

Makes a lot of senses to me Kingfisher. I have had my journey through Atheism, Agnosticism, Evangelical Christian, to my present belief in Liberal Christianity. I am told God is love. I am also aware that not one of these belief groups can declare that they have the monopoly on love. I am therefore drawn to the position that loving is not about signing up to any creed or belief but being true to yourself and your own personal journey and the earnestly seeking of that which is love, whether in spirit, faith, or path..

Not really Dan.. Its like this. The Holy Spirit is God. God can live within people as the Holy Spirit and as the bible says God is Spirit. Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit and in being so was God and Man. God only because the Holy spirit resided within him. The Spirit of love is what Jesus died for and as such he is indeed a sacrifice to the spirit of love and a shining light to those who follow. For me it is inconsequential whether he was resurrected in the flesh or spirit or indeed at all.. Some suspect that Jesus died on the cross and some feel he was spared death (If you read John you will note that the body was treated with Myrrh and Aloes. The Gospel says it was to embalm the body but there was no tradition of Jewish embalming. Myrrh is used to stop bleeding (dead bodies do not bleed) and aloes are used to quicken the heart and to revive someone) and of course some feel he was resurrected. I personally do not know what really happened. All I can say is I believe in that same Spirit of love (that we believe God to be) that Jesus died for. One does not have to believe every word of the bible to believe in Jesus or what he stood for or admire him. Even if Jesus was just an imaginary avatar, his story can still be life changing. As Spong put it. You maybe Jewish, Christian or Muslim but God is niether. We all have a place in God's love.

Just one thing. Moses is said to have written the first five books (the Pentateuch) and these also contain the story of his own death. Pretty neat do you not think? Many people believe the books were written in the tradition of Moses but not actually by Moses. Either way we only have their word (whoever they are?) that any of the books are an accurate account. The other thing to note is when people write stuff throughout the bible, they use previous stuff to justify what they are writing and it therefore looks later as one forecasted the other. I believe much of the NT was written this way too.

Some believe the law and the commandments existed long before Moses See:- Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. and also http://www.thercg.or...les/dttcpm.html (has some interesting points (IMO) even if I do not agree with it all). Also note that the Sabbath was being kept before the Ten Commandments too:- Ex. 16:21-29 "And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot it melted. And it came to pass that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man; and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe and that which remaineth overlay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm there in. And Moses said, Eat that today. for today is a Sabbath unto the Lord: today ye shall not find it in the field. Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, in it there shall be none. And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my law? See, for that the Lord hath given you the Sabbath, therefore He giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let not man go out of his place on the seventh day." Ex. 16:4,5 "Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or no. And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily." It would seem to me that all Moses did was write a few of these down.. As I believe priests did later and then say God gave it to them.

Also all I can say about the judgment (stoning, burning, and killing people)you describe is I cannot see that this biblical description of God declares someone as agape with love, understanding, or forgiving. It would declare God as evil, cruel, narrow minded and vengeful. Nothing like I understand Jesus to be in any way (IMO). If this was the only message and viewpoint around I would leave Christianity for good, but thank God (IMO) it ain't.