Pete

I could also ask you to read books but like me I guess you will not read them either. The question for me is what it is that you think they say that is relevant to this topic. As for the second paragraph, I could not begin to tell you how little that makes sense to me and is based largely on myth (IMO). The bible says this or that but I still find it an unreliable book to put full faith in and it makes it no easier when I point out contradictions on accounts and people say they cannot see them. I also find it unbelievable when people refer to the whole book as God spoken and inerrant. It still comes back to you saying my logic and understanding is flawed but I still see no logic in the idea of a loving God who allows mass murder and so much suffering in the world. Any justification for this does not remove that responsiblity from the biblical idea of God.

I called it a logical proposal based on what we have from my understanding of a biblical perspective. You keep replying to me and Fawzo with reflective questions but you give no more proposals or further info to offset my understanding. You say that my logic is flawed and I am prepared to accept that if you can tell why so many are suffering when a so called all powerful loving God looks on and created all knowing what would happen in advance. Give me reasons why an all powerful loving God allowed 6 million Jews to go to the death camps before it was over. I could also mention Rwanda, and Cambodia and how about Stalin's mass killings (which included Christians) and others. My logic may be flawed but there are still questions that I believe stand, biblical or not..

Cool believe what you will. We only proposed a question based on the logic that was presented. If you have differing conclusion then please express your reasoning. The reasoning we are concerned with is based on 1/ God knows what will happen. (Isa 46:10) (Acts 2:23) (1 Pet 1:2) (Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13) 2/ God created all and knew us before creating. (psalm 139:13) (Jer 1:5) 3/ God could of created us many ways but it seems God created us knowing we would fail him. The question then has to be asked is - if God chooses to create that which he knew in advance would fail him then God created a failure and is therefore ultimately responsible for that act. If I made a table with two legs then I have to take the blame when the table falls over. I cannot thus put all the blame on the table as I knew what it would do before I made it.

I think the argument goes - If God created all things and the devil was the first to choose evil then God must of created evil for the devil to make that choice. If evil did not exist then there was no choice to make. I may choose to flap my arms as if a bird but but no matter I will not fly because that choice is not there. The laws of physics have to allow for the possibility for it to be a possibility. Yet, even then that will not make one fly, as one has to have the desire to fly. In the same way, it can be argued that for Satan to choose evil then God would of had to create evil and a being with that desire and knowing in advance that it would fail him. Hence, if scripture is taken literally it appears to rest the full blame on God.

I believe there is that of the divine in everyone, but on the topic of what a Liberal Christians believes I have to acknowledge that some differ from each other.

I would like to challenge his view though that Liberals all see Jesus as not divine. Liberals mostly see God as divine love, and that Love was in Jesus and can be found in all. As some put it "There is that of God in all". As Spong puts it:- "We cannot, however, escape the power of the fact that Jesus means love-divine, penetrating, opening, life-giving, ecstatic love. Such love is the very essence of what we mean by God. God is love. Jesus is love. God was in Christ. This was the experience that sought to find verbal forms in such creedal concepts as the holy trinity, the incarnation, the virgin birth. It is not the creedal words that are sacred but the reality of the experience that lies behind the words, that is where holiness is met. The God who is love cannot be approached in worship except through the experience of living out that unconditional quality of love. That is why the church must be broken open and freed of its noninclusive prejudices. That is why slavery segregation, sexism, bigotry, and homophobia tear at the very soul of the church." See:- http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/spong3.html It has to be also noted that some Liberals do see Jesus as divine and some do not. Some also see his teachings as divine but not the man. In Short - Some Liberals do see Jesus as divine and some do not. See:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Christianity Liberal Christianity allows an openness rather than being bound by a creed, but it has also to be said that in certain groups like the Unitarians Jesus is not seen as divine :- See:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

Oh! Dan that is rich. Since when have you been a spokes person for Liberal Christianity or managed to get any of us to change to your way of thinking.?

Oh I have no doubt that it now does refer to all within the faith or outside it but the verse you mention only refers to aliens living with a Jew. As i understand it, it still does not refer to loving all who are not Jews or not living with Jews.

No quibble necessary. I agree he was quoting the torah. However, I am led to understand that the wording in the Torah does not mean "neighbor" but refers to ones "fellow Jew". See:- http://www.inner.org/responsa/leter1/resp22.htm However, I realize that what ever it may of originally meant it has grown since then both in the Judaism and other faiths too. It is also a very good quote (IMO) that is important to many.

I also find a lot in other faiths too. Like you I have enjoyed Buddhist teaching and also Hindu. As for religions based in nature, I would be surprised if we are not all touched by that at times. Many do not even realize where some of their teachings come from and do not realize how eclectic their teaching are (IMO). The Bible talks about loving ones neighbor as oneself but I do not believe for one minute that this notion was never used before Jesus was supposed to have said it or that it originates in only one faith. One must believe the unbelievable in order to believe. ????? It reminds me of the old story that if you do not believe in Santa Claus then he will not visit you.

If you have read the posts you will find that some Christians have made it clear that they did not agree with the original poster. Not all Christians believe that everyone is damned just because they do not see things the same way as they do. If there is a universal between what most feel is essential in each faith and non-faith then it is the need for love of another. I am a liberal Christian and I believe that most Wiccans share that belief in love. Why should I ever want them to change that. If I had to put my faith in a nutshell then it is a belief in the power of love and in that I believe many faiths and non faiths share the same faith. I agree with you but I find Liberal Christianity gives me the flexibility to embrace others without prejudice, but I am not say that you must be a Christian. If you find the Wicca serves you in your spiritual journey then I am all for it. All I am saying is that not all who use the name Christian believes it is all about everyone believing the same thing.

I do not remember that coming up short was a choice. It has always been with me. I also do not remember every being asked if I wanted to rebel or not, it has always been that the road is never clear and in my experience (maybe not yours) the bible and church is far from a help.

If I create something that I know will fail then I created it to fail. I cannot complain then that it failed or say it has freewill because I know in advance that I created a thing to fail. God must have created failure.

What free will exists if you create something that you know will fail you?

I know this is getting into a circular argument but you cannot have it both ways (IMO). If God knows the outcome of all he created then God created people to fail. He has therefore no reason to complain about mankind.

So you say God is limited then and not all knowing and needs to test things before he actually knows them. Yet, Jeremiah 1:5 says:- "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." All this not knowing and knowing sounds very contradictory to me Dan.

I am sorry Dan but the explanation about the football supporter does not work for me. The difference is I did not create the supporter to go to the game. God s said to have created all knowing full well what the out come was. If he has foreknowledge that what he was creating was to function in a particular way then he has no one else to blame but himself. If he then regrets what he created and also admits to knowing that what he created would let him down before he created it then he has to be full of nonsense (IMO). It is a bit like a man who digs a hole just to moan about the holes existence.

If I make something that I know will do something then I cannot say it has free choice. If I know that something will fail me then I cannot in fairness judge it because the fault would be mine. The bit you did not answer was on the subject of God repenting. One cannot repent unless one acknowledges they were wrong and have a desire to be different. God is said not to change and is also said not to be wrong. So if God repents what occurs. Giving me a talking about my sin and errors and how that let down God does not answer the point I made.

For the first part I do not believe you answered me. For the second part I quote:- Matthew 19:26 (New International Version - UK) 26 Jesus looked at them and said, With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. If all is possible then God can see the future. If God knows the future then the concept of free will does not exist as all is mapped out and seeable. If God does not see the future then not all things are possible with God. Secondly if God is the same to day as yesterday then God would not need to change his mind. God is said not to change Malachi 3:6.

I guess I lean more to four, however, I also tend to believe God to be more of the spiritual rather than the events of the physical. I have also discovered I missed quoted the saying It should have been "Beware the man of one book." St. Thomas Aquinas.. However, the meaning is the same..

see:- http://www.islamway....tradictions.htm ( I know an equally long list of contradictions can be drawn up from the Koran but on the bible I think they have a point.) See:- http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/ It all comes back to the old saying (IMO) "Beware the man with only one book"..

my post omitted a word and that word was word. Dan said:- "1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31 God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6 No contradiction here. God was satisfied when everything was good, then he repented that he made man because of what man had become, wicked and evil. God regretted sin, and sin is not God's work, but mans." To have regret and to repent one first comes to the conclusion that one was wrong or in error. Are you saying God realized his error (indicating that you agree God is not infallible) or are you saying God did not foresee it (indicating God is not all knowing) or are we saying the word was badly chosen (indicating that the bible is not so clear).

Yes, it all does get confusing sometimes:- Genesis 38 Judah and Tamar 1At that time, Judah left his brothers and went down to stay with a man of Adullam named Hirah. 2There Judah met the daughter of a Canaanite man named Shua. He married her and lay with her; 3she became pregnant and gave birth to a son, who was named Er. 4She conceived again and gave birth to a son and named him Onan. 5She gave birth to still another son and named him Shelah. It was at Kezib that she gave birth to him. 6Judah got a wife for Er, his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. 7But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death. 8Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” 9But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so he put him to death also. 11Judah then said to his daughter-in-law Tamar, “Live as a widow in your father’s house until my son Shelah grows up.” For he thought, “He may die too, just like his brothers.” So Tamar went to live in her father’s house. 12After a long time Judah’s wife, the daughter of Shua, died. When Judah had recovered from his grief, he went up to Timnah, to the men who were shearing his sheep, and his friend Hirah the Adullamite went with him. 13When Tamar was told, “Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep,” 14she took off her widow’s clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself, and then sat down at the entrance to Enaim, which is on the road to Timnah. For she saw that, though Shelah had now grown up, she had not been given to him as his wife. 15When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. 16Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the roadside and said, “Come now, let me sleep with you.” “And what will you give me to sleep with you?” she asked. 17“I’ll send you a young goat from my flock,” he said. “Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it?” she asked. 18He said, “What pledge should I give you?” “Your seal and its cord, and the staff in your hand,” she answered. So he gave them to her and slept with her, and she became pregnant by him. 19After she left, she took off her veil and put on her widow’s clothes again. 20Meanwhile Judah sent the young goat by his friend the Adullamite in order to get his pledge back from the woman, but he did not find her. 21He asked the men who lived there, “Where is the shrine prostitute who was beside the road at Enaim?” “There hasn’t been any shrine prostitute here,” they said. 22So he went back to Judah and said, “I didn’t find her. Besides, the men who lived there said, ‘There hasn’t been any shrine prostitute here.’” 23Then Judah said, “Let her keep what she has, or we will become a laughingstock. After all, I did send her this young goat, but you didn’t find her.” 24About three months later Judah was told, “Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant.” Judah said, “Bring her out and have her burned to death!” 25As she was being brought out, she sent a message to her father-in-law. “I am pregnant by the man who owns these,” she said. And she added, “See if you recognize whose seal and cord and staff these are.” 26Judah recognized them and said, “She is more righteous than I, since I wouldn’t give her to my son Shelah.” And he did not sleep with her again. 27When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. 28As she was giving birth, one of them put out his hand; so the midwife took a scarlet thread and tied it on his wrist and said, “This one came out first.” 29But when he drew back his hand, his brother came out, and she said, “So this is how you have broken out!” And he was named Perez.a 30Then his brother, who had the scarlet thread on his wrist, came out and he was given the name Zerah.b http://www.bible-people.info/Tamar.htm http://www.womeninthebible.net/1.5.Tamar.htm

Dan said:- "1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31 God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6 No contradiction here. God was satisfied when everything was good, then he repented that he made man because of what man had become, wicked and evil. God regretted sin, and sin is not God's work, but mans." To have regret and to repent one first comes to the conclusion that one was wrong or in error. Are you saying God realized his error (indicating that you agree God is not infallible) or are you saying God did not foresee it (indicating God is not all knowing) or are we saying the was badly chosen (indicating that the bible is not so clear).

Actually the book says God not only stopped the pharoah he hardened his heart so he would refuse and for me that suggests God was responsible for much of the resistence. Also on the topic of cars, bad cars are removed from the market. It just seems God did not forsee the need to withdraw dangerous apples. You argue that a thing is a work in progress but why do that if God is all powerful. Why not make the ready made product?