Turnig Witches To Christ

[pope_cahbet]

[snipped...]

An Omniscient being has no need to test anyone or anything ever.

The ancient argument against the Christian God and one still brought up today is that any being who is both all-knowing and all-powerful could not then also be all-good, else where did evil and pain come from? Either He is not all-knowing (so some things surprise Him) or She is not all-powerful (so some things She can not do) or They are not all-good (so sometimes They let us suffer and let evil exist to serve Their own purposes). I am sure there are Christian apologists who have answered the you-cannot-be-all-three argument, but I have not read their refutation and logic would seem to side with the no-you-cannot argument, IMHO.

One of the reasons I am a Discordian UU Heterodox Christian, rather than the mainstream Baptist I was raised to be, is because I long ago rejected the all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good Trinity God. It makes much more sense to me to believe that sometimes She is just whimsical and while She can know anything, she does not pay attention to us all the time.

By the way, an apologist is someone who explains something and answers its critics, not someone who says they are sorry about something. An apology used to mean an explanation, not a statement of remorse.

[Fawzo]

The ancient argument against the Christian God and one still brought up today is that any being who is both all-knowing and all-powerful could not then also be all-good, else where did evil and pain come from? Either He is not all-knowing (so some things surprise Him) or She is not all-powerful (so some things She can not do) or They are not all-good (so sometimes They let us suffer and let evil exist to serve Their own purposes). I am sure there are Christian apologists who have answered the you-cannot-be-all-three argument, but I have not read their refutation and logic would seem to side with the no-you-cannot argument, IMHO.

One of the reasons I am a Discordian UU Heterodox Christian, rather than the mainstream Baptist I was raised to be, is because I long ago rejected the all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good Trinity God. It makes much more sense to me to believe that sometimes She is just whimsical and while She can know anything, she does not pay attention to us all the time.

By the way, an apologist is someone who explains something and answers its critics, not someone who says they are sorry about something. An apology used to mean an explanation, not a statement of remorse.

Yes the whole concept of God's adversary Satan was created to try to explain away the pain and suffering that permeates our world, to make the wishful concept that God was both Good and Omniscient seem more true.

An example:

A man has his 6 children and pets in a house and the front door is opened and he knows before hand a pack of hungry wolves is headed towards his house and does nothing to stop them from entering and killing his six children and cats and dogs.

What do we think of this man? Can you call this man good?

Another example: The same man in the same scenario has forknowledge that the wolves are coming and as the pack enters his home he chases them upstairs and all through the house with a shotgun and rids his house of the wolves by killing each and everyone, yet 4 of the cildren died and a cat and a dog.

Once again what do we think of this man? Is it possible to call him good?

This is exactly the picture the Bible portrays of the Omniscient God thats exists within it's pages. What makes the Biblical God even worse is that he loosed the hounds of hell upon His children originally and expects the surviving children to whimper at his feet with praise and worship. It's all superstitious nonsense in my opinion, the musings of bronze age goat herders.

Yet for any of us who believe in a Deity that is all loving and compassionate, the problem of evil exists and one struggles to rationalize the "good" evil must represent if our Dieties are Omniscient and Good. Passing it off as "Maya" or illusion just doesn't cut it fo me.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

Once again death existed for billions of year before the story of Adam and Eve was conjured up.

I was referring to the death of souls, and in that sense, there has been no death yet.

Billions have never heard your truth to be able to reject it and to many of those who have in other cultures it is as nonsensical as their belief systems seem to you. Now think about why your belief system seems like nonsense to people in other cultures. God could have made the truth clear to everyone without a chance of doubt by having it written in flaming purple letters suspended in air all over the planet if he so chose.

Other 'belief systems' aren't nonsensical to me, I just don't accept them as Truth. I don't believe God's Truth is divided by or restricted to cultures. God's Truth was made clear to those who will receive it. He tried that flame in the sky routine, but 40 days later, folks were back worshipping the golden calf. What's a God to do?

Without the knowledge of Good and Evil how would she know what a lie was?

God clearly told Eve what would happen if she ate of the forbidden tree, she ignored God and believed the serpent. So saying she didn't know does not excuse her disobedience. They knew, that's why they hid themselves.

An Omniscient being has no need to test anyone or anything ever. All knowledge is His. Love does not test, fear does!!

It is not God's perfect love that is being tested, its ours. I believe God does have a reason to test us.

No that is what someone from the Johannine Community wrote that Jesus stated. The writer of the Gospel of John is the least credible witness in the Bible. Do we need to go over all the contradictions within the Gospel of John again and again.

I'm aware of what you think are contradictions, but I simply disagree.. We see what we want to see.

[Dan56]

The ancient argument against the Christian God and one still brought up today is that any being who is both all-knowing and all-powerful could not then also be all-good, else where did evil and pain come from?

Sin is where evil came from... God is good, all knowing, and all powerful.

[Fawzo]

I was referring to the death of souls, and in that sense, there has been no death yet.

Why would you think the death of a soul is not a good thing. If having to watch one's every conscious thought as to not anger your God eternally seems like hell to some and the death of a soul would be a welcome release for some from such torture.

Other 'belief systems' aren't nonsensical to me, I just don't accept them as Truth. I don't believe God's Truth is divided by or restricted to cultures. God's Truth was made clear to those who will receive it. He tried that flame in the sky routine, but 40 days later, folks were back worshipping the golden calf. What's a God to do?

That was most likely a Volcano which man in his ignorance labeled as Deity. The people worshiped the calf because the trip from Egypt to the promise land should have taken 4 days and how long were they suffering in the desert before they worshipped the calf. Many of them most have thought Moses and his God needed a GPS and some of the volcanic fumes were causing Moses problems.

Can you tell me where anything in our World exhibits other worldly awe and splendor which can't be explained away as a normal function of our Universe. Maybe like text messages displayed across our Sun with a continuous reading of John 3:16. That would work for most I do believe.

God clearly told Eve what would happen if she ate of the forbidden tree, she ignored God and believed the serpent. So saying she didn't know does not excuse her disobedience. They knew, that's why they hid themselves.

Yes when you clearly tell a 6 month old baby not to eat the candy and they will die and someone else tells them eat the candy it tastes so good. The baby is at fault?!?!?! Who left the candy out in the first place and left the child un-supervised and who didn't protect their house properly from the enemy having access to their children. Most would call that person a MORON!

It is not God's perfect love that is being tested, its ours. I believe God does have a reason to test us.

There is no need to test our love. He knows our hearts and needs even before we ask for something. He created Yeshua as the propitiation for sin before he fused two hydrogen atoms together to make helium and laid the foundations for the earth.

I'm aware of what you think are contradictions, but I simply disagree.. We see what we want to see.

And there is also willful ignorance, and as scientists have tested and shown through brain research when people of a belief system are present with FACTS which are contrary to that individuals belief system they stop using the cognitive portion of their brains and use their emotional areas when making a response.

I think the different designations of Synoptic amd Gnostic Gospel that seperates John's from the other three accepted canonical Gospel by the vast majority of highly educated Bible scholars make the factual point that there are differences quite easy for all to see.

Just read John and the others and see what Jesus was doing three days after his baptism and whether John the Baptist was in prison or not when Jesus began his ministry.

See if Jesus prayed for the cup to pass him by even to the point of sweating blood or as John states he scoffed at such an idea.

Did the women rush and grab Jesus by his feet when they saw his ressurected body or did Jesus forbid such as in John. Just a few of many to jog your memory. Some of these things may seem trivial but thay all speak of credibility. If you can't trust someone with the small details you sure as heck cant trust them with whether Jesus claimed to be God.

[Pete]

Sin is where evil came from... God is good, all knowing, and all powerful.

The argument against the biblical concept of God goes:- If god is all powerful and does not stop suffering then God cannot be said to be loving. If God is all knowing and ignores suffering then God is not loving. If God created all and imperfection grows from it then God cannot of made a perfect world. If God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then why make it accessible (Even humans know of health and safety and most parents know to keep dangerous objects away from their children and especially those we love).

If God knows the outcome of what he/she is testing then why test, especially when such testing creates many to suffer greatly (if God does not know the out come then he/she is not all knowing and if God chooses to ignore this knowledge then he/she cannot be said to be all knowing).

If the bible is the word of God and it for all to believe on it then how is it written so badly. Few people reject the bible because the are sinful but because it does not stand up to their reasoning and if this is so then why judge people, surely the option would be to make it all the more clearer.

If God is all powerful then why does God need mankind to write the bible and why does God need mankind to spread its news (surely God would have better ways at his/her disposal and if not then is God then either inefficient or incompetent).

I am sorry Dan but in my experience the dividing line is not a sinful nature of a person but the inability to accept reasoning of the bible. If that is so then the blame must rest squarely with God's explanation as expressed in the bible, which For many is neither simple or clear.

[Tsukino_Rei]

The argument against the biblical concept of God goes:- If god is all powerful and does not stop suffering then God cannot be said to be loving. If God is all knowing and ignores suffering then God is not loving. If God created all and imperfection grows from it then God cannot of made a perfect world. If God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then why make it accessible (Even humans know of health and safety and most parents know to keep dangerous objects away from their children and especially those we love).

If God knows the outcome of what he/she is testing then why test, especially when such testing creates many to suffer greatly (if God does not know the out come then he/she is not all knowing and if God chooses to ignore this knowledge then he/she cannot be said to be all knowing).

If the bible is the word of God and it for all to believe on it then how is it written so badly. Few people reject the bible because the are sinful but because it does not stand up to their reasoning and if this is so then why judge people, surely the option would be to make it all the more clearer.

If God is all powerful then why does God need mankind to write the bible and why does God need mankind to spread its news (surely God would have better ways at his/her disposal and if not then is God then either inefficient or incompetent).

I am sorry Dan but in my experience the dividing line is not a sinful nature of a person but the inability to accept reasoning of the bible. If that is so then the blame must rest squarely with God's explanation as expressed in the bible, which For many is neither simple or clear.

I ask myself can choice exist or is the relevance of choice diminished within the framework of non-linear time as understood by physics. My answer is no. If a Being could observe all of time non-linearly would that Being by act of observing diminish the relevance or remove entirely that choices had or were being made? My answer remains no.

[Dan56]

Why would you think the death of a soul is not a good thing.

Call me crazy.... I guess I just assumed it was preferable to live.

The people worshiped the calf because the trip from Egypt to the promise land should have taken 4 days and how long were they suffering in the desert before they worshipped the calf. Many of them must have thought Moses and his God needed a GPS and some of the volcanic fumes were causing Moses problems.

The Hebrews weren't suffering, they were eating drinking and playing (Exodus 32:6). Why would God expedite the journey after they had turned into a bunch of idolaters?

Yes when you clearly tell a 6 month old baby not to eat the candy and they will die and someone else tells them eat the candy it tastes so good. The baby is at fault?!?!?!

Your analogy would be relevant if A&E were babies.

There is no need to test our love. He knows our hearts and needs even before we ask for something.

Hearts change, nonbelievers can become believers.

Just read John and the others and see what Jesus was doing three days after his baptism and whether John the Baptist was in prison or not when Jesus began his ministry.

I see no contradiction, the Baptist was imprisoned during the ministry of Christ.

See if Jesus prayed for the cup to pass him by even to the point of sweating blood or as John states he scoffed at such an idea.

No where does John record that Jesus 'scoffed' at the idea. John's gospel doesn't even mention the same prayer.

Did the women rush and grab Jesus by his feet when they saw his ressurected body or did Jesus forbid such as in John. Just a few of many to jog your memory. Some of these things may seem trivial but thay all speak of credibility. If you can't trust someone with the small details you sure as heck cant trust them with whether Jesus claimed to be God.

The Greek word for 'touch' (haptou)' is translated as touch, hold, or cling. Jesus was telling Mary not to hold him up by clinging to him, because he had not yet ascended to the Father. Your interpretation presumes it was an order not to touch, but I read it as Jesus requesting of Mary (who was already clinging to him) to let him go and not hold him up.

[Dan56]

The argument against the biblical concept of God goes:- If god is all powerful and does not stop suffering then God cannot be said to be loving. If God is all knowing and ignores suffering then God is not loving. If God created all and imperfection grows from it then God cannot of made a perfect world.

So God cannot be perfect because your not perfect? Consider that God's work is still in progress, but the end result will be perfection.

If God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then why make it accessible (Even humans know of health and safety and most parents know to keep dangerous objects away from their children and especially those we love).

That's like saying that if you don't want people to get into car accidents, then why make cars accessible?

If God knows the outcome of what he/she is testing then why test, especially when such testing creates many to suffer greatly (if God does not know the out come then he/she is not all knowing and if God chooses to ignore this knowledge then he/she cannot be said to be all knowing).

God is omniscient (all knowing), but his omnipotence (all powerful) can change what would be into something else. It is God's intervention that changes what is going to be. In other words, God's omniscience is not set in stone, because his omnipotence dictates the future. God may know what you will do tomorrow, but he also has the power to alter things spiritually or physically. For example, God physically stopped the Pharaoh, otherwise the Hebrews would have died in captivity.

[Fawzo]

Call me crazy.... I guess I just assumed it was preferable to live.

Maybe as a free man not as someones slave to be tourtured whenever one uses their own free will.

The Hebrews weren't suffering, they were eating drinking and playing (Exodus 32:6). Why would God expedite the journey after they had turned into a bunch of idolaters?

They should have been there or at least had scouts returned with the good news of finding the land days before they even turned into idolators. There is no evidence the story ever even happened.

Your analogy would be relevant if A&E were babies.

Or retarded by not being given full cognitive abilities.

Hearts change, nonbelievers can become believers.

And once again God knows this before it takes place and you were even born, according to the Bible. Thats how he wrote the names in the Lamb's Book of life which is sealed.

I see no contradiction, the Baptist was imprisoned during the ministry of Christ.

Of course you don't. Your mind is behaving just as sciecnce predicted it would. The Gospel of John has Jesus performing miracles and selecting apostles and even baptizing people the same time as John the baptists a few days after his own baptism and the Synoptics Gospel tell us Jesus didn't even begin his ministry or select an apostle until after his 40 day temptation in the desert and John was imprisoned.

Even the manner and order of the selection of the apostles is different but still you see no problems, the reason being is because then the credibility of the Gospel of John is ruined and your whole belief systems falls like a deck of cards and you can't have that. You ca't be like all the others on the planet and not have the truth secured.

No where does John record that Jesus 'scoffed' at the idea. John's gospel doesn't even mention the same prayer.

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. John 12:27-28 (KJV)

said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? John 18:11 (KJV)

Far cry from the man sweating blood and upset< Notice there is no agony in the garden or 40 day temptation of Jesus in John;s superman portrayal of Jesus.

And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. 36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt Mark 14:35-36 (KJV)

The Greek word for 'touch' (haptou)' is translated as touch, hold, or cling. Jesus was telling Mary not to hold him up by clinging to him, because he had not yet ascended to the Father. Your interpretation presumes it was an order not to touch, but I read it as Jesus requesting of Mary (who was already clinging to him) to let him go and not hold him up.

You need to read it that way to avoid the obvious contradiction. Shouldn't God and the Holy Spirit had rendered this more clearly and understandable even if you're version is correct, which I doubt anyone would comprehend when reading originally as it makes no sense. If he were in such a hurry to visit the Father he wouldn't have been waiting around the tomb all morning. Also how does one physically hold and deter a Spirit with your hands.

Your mind is rationalizing once again.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Fawzo

[Pete]

So God cannot be perfect because your not perfect? Consider that God's work is still in progress, but the end result will be perfection.

That's like saying that if you don't want people to get into car accidents, then why make cars accessible?

God is omniscient (all knowing), but his omnipotence (all powerful) can change what would be into something else. It is God's intervention that changes what is going to be. In other words, God's omniscience is not set in stone, because his omnipotence dictates the future. God may know what you will do tomorrow, but he also has the power to alter things spiritually or physically. For example, God physically stopped the Pharaoh, otherwise the Hebrews would have died in captivity.

Actually the book says God not only stopped the pharoah he hardened his heart so he would refuse and for me that suggests God was responsible for much of the resistence.

Also on the topic of cars, bad cars are removed from the market. It just seems God did not forsee the need to withdraw dangerous apples.

You argue that a thing is a work in progress but why do that if God is all powerful. Why not make the ready made product?

[pope_cahbet]

Yes the whole concept of God's adversary Satan was created to try to explain away the pain and suffering that permeates our world, to make the wishful concept that God was both Good and Omniscient seem more true.

An example:

A man has his 6 children and pets in a house and the front door is opened and he knows before hand a pack of hungry wolves is headed towards his house and does nothing to stop them from entering and killing his six children and cats and dogs.

What do we think of this man? Can you call this man good?

Another example: The same man in the same scenario has forknowledge that the wolves are coming and as the pack enters his home he chases them upstairs and all through the house with a shotgun and rids his house of the wolves by killing each and everyone, yet 4 of the cildren died and a cat and a dog.

Once again what do we think of this man? Is it possible to call him good?

This is exactly the picture the Bible portrays of the Omniscient God thats exists within it's pages. What makes the Biblical God even worse is that he loosed the hounds of hell upon His children originally and expects the surviving children to whimper at his feet with praise and worship. It's all superstitious nonsense in my opinion, the musings of bronze age goat herders.

Yet for any of us who believe in a Deity that is all loving and compassionate, the problem of evil exists and one struggles to rationalize the "good" evil must represent if our Dieties are Omniscient and Good. Passing it off as "Maya" or illusion just doesn't cut it fo me.

Actually, no one alive today knows why the concept of Satan was created. Elaine Pagels has a book out on that topic (The Birth of Satan) and I have it on my to-be-read list. My understanding is that Christianity inherited it from the Hellenistic (meaning, urbanized, exposed to Greek and Roman thought and viewpoints as opposed to those who stuck to more hardcore Jewish traditions) side of the family tree, in other words, it was Paul's version of Christianity. I have read that Satan came from the Persian concept of Shaitan and Persia was at that time a Zorastrian country, so Zoraster came up with the notion of a dualistic Good versus Evil world. The ancient religions, especially those that had pantheons, tended to understand things in terms of what was good for them and what was bad for them, but not with these overall galactic-level Good and Evil concepts. Pain is a fact of life, so it would not be Evil - just bad.

I agree that just having your Diety be all-good (or all-loving) creates logical problems, especially when you start adding all-powerful and/or all-knowing to that. This is why I can not accept a Supreme Being with all three attributes. Either there is more than one, roughly-equal in power, Diety and what we see as evil (or pain or injustice) is the result of their fighting; or there are limits to what the Supreme Being can do or know - or that Being has its own agenda and our suffering do not count as evil or bad in that Being's viewpoint.

The really interesting thing to me about Christianity is how the Catholics (at least some and sorta) acknowledge that their Church is built on Authority (Christ to Peter to Popes to all the lower ranks of priest) and the Bible is more a source of inspiration, guiding their actions but not higher than the Pope (which puts a human in charge of their Church); while the Protestants defy the Authority structure and claim all believers are priests if they choose to be, then enshrine the Bible (which puts a badly-translated and poorly-understood and easily-misinterpreted book that was cobbled together by a committee of Catholics in charge of their Church).

Most Protestants have little or no knowledge of how the Bible came to be assembled, how many times and how badly it has been translated, how few copies exist of any early versions from which a good translation can be made, how much those Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek early versions differ one from another, how many scholars have taken the books apart and put them back together (comparing them to other religious texts and to the results of archeology and other sciences and arts) and discovered all sorts of things about them, and so on. In short, they (most Protestants) know very little, actually, about the Bible they claim to be Holy and Infallible. They may be able to cite chapter and verse, but not the context in which it was written or how a text that needs inserts [in brackets] and footnotes can possibly be Divinely-perfect.

I call myself a Heterodox Christian (among other things) because I was raised a Christian and am part of that culture, and because I still find much to admire and follow in the teachings attributed to Jesus, not because I stupidly turn off my brain whenever a preacher starts spouting off. I do still find much to value in the Bible. Just don't ask me to take it at face value or to accept that the religion about Jesus is more important than the religion of Jesus, that history as relayed in the Bible is seamless and factual, or that everyone done in the name of YVHV was just and righteous.

[Dan56]

Of course you don't. Your mind is behaving just as science predicted it would. The Gospel of John has Jesus performing miracles and selecting apostles and even baptizing people the same time as John the baptists a few days after his own baptism and the Synoptics Gospel tell us Jesus didn't even begin his ministry or select an apostle until after his 40 day temptation in the desert and John was imprisoned.

There are no theological contradictions in the bible, but chronological differences among the 4 gospels have been known for centuries. The authors were not concerned with getting the sequence of events entirely accurate, since they never intended to write a chronologically perfect history book. The same format is used throughout the bible, historical parts are put in chronological sequence, but other parts, such as with the Minor Prophets, are grouped together. The gospel writers were explaining the Messiah's life, mission, message, and purpose. They each reviewed events that happened, but decades after the fact, they weren't trying to list a step by step or moment by moment biography of Jesus.

If the Four Gospels did completely match, it would make all of them highly suspect, because it would be impossible to have four accounts completely agree without massive collusion. While they don't redundantly cover all of the same information, the four gospels tell essentially the same story. Bottom line; Jesus was baptized, Jesus was tempted, and Jesus chose all the apostles. So imo, nitpicking about the order of how the story is told, just causes a person to miss the message.

Far cry from the man sweating blood and upset. Notice there is no agony in the garden or 40 day temptation of Jesus in John;s superman portrayal of Jesus.

It could be because John didn't include the temptation of Christ or the prayer in the garden...

And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt Mark 14:35-36 (KJV)

I believe the cup referred to here, was not regarding the immediate fate of Christ. Jesus already knew his purpose as the sacrificial lamb. But the crucifixion meant that a future cup would be poured out, the Cup of Wrath mentioned in Revelation. This is why Jesus was asking his Father if there was any other way. "But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children." I believe Jesus was sweating for us in Gethsemane, not himself.

You argue that a thing is a work in progress but why do that if God is all powerful. Why not make the ready made product?

I suppose if we were dealing with inanimate objects instead of living souls, that would be a good argument. But we are here to prove our love for the Father, and love is not something that can be ordered from children who have free will.

[Fawzo]

There are no theological contradictions in the bible, but chronological differences among the 4 gospels have been known for centuries. The authors were not concerned with getting the sequence of events entirely accurate, since they never intended to write a chronologically perfect history book. The same format is used throughout the bible, historical parts are put in chronological sequence, but other parts, such as with the Minor Prophets, are grouped together. The gospel writers were explaining the Messiah's life, mission, message, and purpose. They each reviewed events that happened, but decades after the fact, they weren't trying to list a step by step or moment by moment biography of Jesus.

You might want to check again my friend. http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

1. God is satisfied with his works

Gen 1:31

God is dissatisfied with his works.

Gen 6:6

2. God dwells in chosen temples

2 Chron 7:12,16

God dwells not in temples

Acts 7:48

3. God dwells in light

Tim 6:16

God dwells in darkness

1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

4. God is seen and heard

Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/

Ex 24:9-11

God is invisible and cannot be heard

John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

5. God is tired and rests

Ex 31:17

God is never tired and never rests

Is 40:28

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things

Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21

God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all

things

Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

7. God knows the hearts of men

Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3

God tries men to find out what is in their heart

Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

8. God is all powerful

Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26

God is not all powerful

Judg 1:19

9. God is unchangeable

James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19

God is changeable

Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/

Ex 33:1,3,17,14

10. God is just and impartial

Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25

God is unjust and partial

Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

11. God is the author of evil

Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25

God is not the author of evil

1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

12. God gives freely to those who ask

James 1:5/ Luke 11:10

God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving

them

John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

13. God is to be found by those who seek him

Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17

God is not to be found by those who seek him

Prov 1:28

14. God is warlike

Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15

God is peaceful

Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious

Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19

God is kind, merciful, and good

James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/

1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long

Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4

God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute

Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,

sacrifices ,and holy days

Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9

God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,

sacrifices, and holy days.

Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

18. God accepts human sacrifices

2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39

God forbids human sacrifice

Deut 12:30,31

19. God tempts men

Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13

God tempts no man

James 1:13

20. God cannot lie

Heb 6:18

God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive

2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him

Gen 6:5,7

Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him

Gen 8:21

22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.

Rom 1:20

God's attributes cannot be discovered

Job 11:7/ Is 40:28

23. There is but one God

Deut 6:4

There is a plurality of gods

Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded

Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36

Robbery forbidden

Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

25. Lying approved and sanctioned

Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22

Lying forbidden

Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned

2 Kings 14:7,3

Hatred to the Edomite forbidden

Deut 23:7

27. Killing commanded

Ex 32:27

Killing forbidden

Ex 20:13

28. The blood-shedder must die

Gen 9:5,6

The blood-shedder must not die

Gen 4:15

29. The making of images forbidden

Ex 20:4

The making of images commanded

Ex 25:18,20

30. Slavery and oppression ordained

Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8

Slavery and oppression forbidden

Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

31. Improvidence enjoyed

Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3

Improvidence condemned

1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22

32. Anger approved

Eph 4:26

Anger disapproved

Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20

33. Good works to be seen of men

Matt 5:16

Good works not to be seen of men

Matt 6:1

34. Judging of others forbidden

Matt 7:1,2

Judging of others approved

1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

35. Christ taught non-resistance

Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52

Christ taught and practiced physical resistance

Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed

Luke 12:4

Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed

John 7:1

37. Public prayer sanctioned

1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3

Public prayer disapproved

Matt 6:5,6

38. Importunity in prayer commended

Luke 18:5,7

Importunity in prayer condemned

Matt 6:7,8

39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned

Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5

The wearing of long hair by men condemned

1 Cor 11:14

40. Circumcision instituted

Gen 17:10

Circumcision condemned

Gal 5:2

41. The Sabbath instituted

Ex 20:8

The Sabbath repudiated

Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day

Ex 20:11

The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites

out of Egypt

Deut 5:15

43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death

Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36

Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in

the same

John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

44. Baptism commanded

Matt 28:19

Baptism not commanded

1 Cor 1:17,14

45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.

Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14

Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.

Deut 14:7,8

46. Taking of oaths sanctioned

Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13

Taking of oaths forbidden

Matt 5:34

47. Marriage approved

Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4

Marriage disapproved

1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8

48. Freedom of divorce permitted

Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14

Divorce restricted

Matt 5:32

49. Adultery forbidden

Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4

Adultery allowed

Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced

Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17

Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union

Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

51. A man may marry his brother's widow

Deut 25:5

A man may not marry his brother's widow

Lev 20:21

52. Hatred to kindred enjoined

Luke 14:26

Hatred to kindred condemned

Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29

53. Intoxicating beverages recommended

Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15

Intoxicating beverages discountenanced

Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32

54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers

and punish evil doers only

Rom 13:1-3,6

It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the

good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor

Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/

Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35

55. Women's rights denied

Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6

Women's rights affirmed

Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9

56. Obedience to masters enjoined

Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18

Obedience due to God only

Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10

57. There is an unpardonable sin

Mark 3:29

There is not unpardonable sin

Acts 13:39

[Bro. Hex]

You might want to check again my friend. http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

Well, I'm certainly glad we have cleared that up.

For a moment there, I was getting confused!

Edited May 23, 2010 by murphzlaw1
brevity!

[pope_cahbet]

You might want to check again my friend. http://www.evilbible...tradictions.htm

How much of these contradictions could be explained by removing Proverbs from the list? That is generally known as poetry, so poetic license could be involved.

Then, consider that the Tribal God of the Hebrews may not actually be the same Being as the God of Paul and other never-met-Jesus writers of the New Testament. The Hebrew God was capricious and warlike and very much in line with the other gods of the pantheons of the times up to monotheism took over; the New Testament God is much more a Theological Being, existing in the Platonic Ideal rather than the earthly realm. (I blame Paul and the influence of Zarathustra's grip on Persia for the abstract, ideal God of the theologians.)

Thank you for the list and the link to it, in any case. I will probably put some of this on my webpage for whatever I decide to do about my Ministry.

Edited May 23, 2010 by murphzlaw1
also brevity!

[Dan56]

You might want to check again my friend. http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

1. God is satisfied with his works

Gen 1:31

God is dissatisfied with his works.

Gen 6:6

No contradiction here. God was satisfied when everything was good, then he repented that he made man because of what man had become, wicked and evil. God regretted sin, and sin is not God's work, but mans.

2. God dwells in chosen temples

2 Chron 7:12,16

God dwells not in temples

Acts 7:48

The Temple in the OT was where sacrifice was made, sins were atoned for, the law was taught, and where prayers were offered. With the New Covenant, the laws were put in our minds, and written on our hearts (Hebrews 8;10). Jesus became our sacrifice and his Holy Spirit dwells with believers. The Old Covenant passed away and the New Covenant represents change, not contradiction.

Wow, I'll just skip to the last one, because it would take an hour to respond to 57 of these claims.

57. There is an unpardonable sin

Mark 3:29

There is not unpardonable sin

Acts 13:39

The unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Acts 13:39 is specifically referring to the law of Moses, all these sins are forgivable upon repentance.

Its important to read the full subject, and not just pull random verses out in an attempt to qualify a so-called contradiction. Its ridiculous to say God loved people and God hated people, thus the bible contradicts itself. Any book you scrutinized would qualify as contradictory when paraphrased in that manner.

[Fawzo]

57. There is an unpardonable sin

Mark 3:29

There is not unpardonable sin

Acts 13:39

The unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Acts 13:39 is specifically referring to the law of Moses, all these sins are forgivable upon repentance.

Its important to read the full subject, and not just pull random verses out in an attempt to qualify a so-called contradiction. Its ridiculous to say God loved people and God hated people, thus the bible contradicts itself. Any book you scrutinized would qualify as contradictory when paraphrased in that manner.

Read the vers again Dan. Acts 13:39 is specifically speaking against the weakness and corruption of the Law of Moses and how that now we have a superior agent In Jesus Christ who through belief in ALL are justified from ALL things. A clear theological contradiction to Mark 3:29 (KJV "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: "

But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:37-39 (KJV)

I also wanted to bring up a concession you made earlier "The authors were not concerned with getting the sequence of events entirely accurate, since they never intended to write a chronologically perfect history book"

No Dan they weren't writting a History book, just merely the alleged prefect Will and Word of God. No need for the Holy Spirit to give them the factual details event by event or word by word as that would merely get in the way and stop from causing all those wars and mass murders in the name of God.

Such contradcitions are clear cut evidence the writers were not eyewitnesses and we'ren't writing through Holy Spirit dictation as many believe. They were writting the second or third hand testimony of mortal me who heard stories from others, and these others colored their stories from their world view and the writers further colored them through the lenses of their enculturnated belief systems. A far far cry from the word of any intelligent deity I must say. Especially an omniscient one who would know beforehand of the horror and bloodshed that would result from him being the "author of confusion."

"Truth" is pretty self evident once the facts are made clear Dan. The Bible just doesn't seem to fit into that hole without a whole lot of contortions and jack hammering from my standpoint.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 13:37-39 (KJV)

And there's your clarification, "by the law of Moses". Though we were once condemned by the law, we are now justified in Christ. But how can we be justified by Christ if we blasphemy his Holy Spirit. Its logical that this sin can't be forgiven.

No Dan they weren't writing a History book, just merely the alleged prefect Will and Word of God. No need for the Holy Spirit to give them the factual details event by event or word by word as that would merely get in the way and stop from causing all those wars and mass murders in the name of God.

We have a lot of factual details and most every important event. Imagine the volume of books that would be necessary to cover 4000 years of history, or even a day by day journal of the 33 years of Jesus. I believe we were given all we need to understand the plan of God and what he desires of us.

[Fawzo]

And there's your clarification, "by the law of Moses". Though we were once condemned by the law, we are now justified in Christ. But how can we be justified by Christ if we blasphemy his Holy Spirit. Its logical that this sin can't be forgiven.

Well then Dan, I and many like me are more loving and compassionate than your God, for if you blaspheme against me out of ignorance or anger and later recant you need not even bother to ask forgiveness except for your own mental health, because in my mind there was nothing for you to be forgiven for. Your delusions of the truth of who and what I am are your own and do not reflect the actuality or truth of who or what I am in even the slightest. If I am even offended in the slightest then I must not be secure in the knowledge of who and what I am.

Am I also more secure in my self knowledge than your God. Wow seems to me I'm more loving, forgiving, tolerant and have a higher self esteem than your deity if that is even possible for a human to succeed an Omniscient being.

We have a lot of factual details and most every important event. Imagine the volume of books that would be necessary to cover 4000 years of history, or even a day by day journal of the 33 years of Jesus. I believe we were given all we need to understand the plan of God and what he desires of us.

What we have are the embellished redacted apocalyptic writings from a culture that believed in a lot of myths. We have failed prophecies and a barbaric society that thought it was sometimes ok to kill adulterers, disobedient children, people who worked the Sabbath, slaves because they were your property, pimp their daughters and occasionally kill all their surrounding neighbors when their was a shortage of reality. Not to mention the inhumane and hoorific treatment of animals because they wrongly thought their Deity was thrilled and delighted with such sacrifices. They thought the earth was flat and immovable and unshakeable unless God got angry and that there were storehouses in the sky for the winds. The firmanent which they imagined seperated heaven from earth and was a hammered out plate. They imagine a heaven above and a hell below within the bowels of the earth. All the ignorant writings of ignorant men.

What we do have factual evidence of is that early Christians would lie, forge and say and do anything to get people to believe that the Son of Man was going to return in their lifetimes. Just one of many failed prophecies contained within the pages of the Bible.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Fawzo