Liberal Christianity 2

[Pete]

Gee, it would be nice if there were Jews who were members of the forum. Then we could ask them.

It would of been great to have you turn up earlier, but since we did not have you, we used websites like:- http://www.religionf...s/afterlife.htm

Which says things like :- "The Torah and Talmud alike focus on the purpose of earthly life, which is to fulfill one's duties to God and one's fellow man. Succeeding at this brings reward, failing at it brings punishment. Whether rewards and punishments continue after death, or whether anything at all happens after death, is not as important. Despite the subject's general exclusion from the Jewish sacred texts, however, Judaism does incorporate views on the afterlife. Yet unlike the other monotheistic religions, no one view has ever been officially agreed upon, and there is much room for speculation."

My point was that Islam and Christianity have definite views on what will happen in the after life but Judaism does not and it was interesting (IMO) to consider that they both boast their origins within Judaism.

When I read the links on Judaism's approach of letting God decide on the after life and not prescribing things ourselves it was something that I personally found an admiration for.

However, this comment raised a lot debate which I do not wish to return to and also included whether Most of Judaism believe Messianic Jews are part of Judaism. I know they do but I could not find evidence that others do.

Things got hot after that.

"Yesterday is history

Tomorrow is a mystery

Today is a gift. " - Alice Morse Earle

Other sites I used were :- http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

http://messiahtruth....ewtopic/id/1261

http://www.religious...rg/mess_jud.htm

http://en.wikipedia....ssianic_Judaism

http://www.wordiq.co...ssianic_Judaism

Maybe you could email me with your thoughts? I would be interested.

Sorry for the doubling up but I got timed out.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

Gee, it would be nice if there were Jews who were members of the forum. Then we could ask them.

Yea there use to be a few of them around here but I think they may have been 'Raptured" or something

[Fawzo]

My opinion is that Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God/Heaven almost exclusively; which makes sense after reading the OT prophets and their comments regarding the Gentile inclusion in the Kingdom. In my opinion Jesus went to the Jews to "wake them up" in regard to their responsibility of welcoming the Gentiles into the kingdom of Heaven, which they we not doing: "to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile."

I do not know if Jesus ate with Gentiles, but he ate with others who we just as "offensive" to the religious elite at the time.

The main unifying Biblical theme (in my opinion) from Gen 3 to the end is the Kingdom of God/Heaven. The theme of the parables (in my opinion) is lost if they are not understood through this Kingdom perspective; for example:

16 Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2 So he called him in and asked him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.'

3 "The manager said to himself, 'What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg— 4 I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.'

5 "So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, 'How much do you owe my master?'

6 "'Eight hundred gallons of olive oil,' he replied.

"The manager told him, 'Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.'

7 "Then he asked the second, 'And how much do you owe?'

"'A thousand bushels of wheat,' he replied.

"He told him, 'Take your bill and make it eight hundred.'

8 "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

10 "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11 So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?

13 "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Lk 16:1-15.

I have heard people butcher the meaning of this parable (in my opinion), and apart from the realization that God blesses people in order for them to draw others into the Kingdom, this parable would seem to be justifying and praising corrupt dealings.

Yes "the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" is a prevalent theme throughout the New Testament. Now hold out your hand and tell me how far away is Heaven.

In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand Matt 3:1-2 (KJV)

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt 4:17 (KJV)

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand Matt 10:7 (KJV

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: Mark 1:15 (KJV)

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled Luke 21:31-32 (KJV)

I doubt if any translation or concordance rendering can place heaven two thousand years into the future within the context of these sayings.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Fawzo

[Bro. Hex]

Yes "the Kingdom of heaven is at hand" is a prevalent theme throughout the New Testament.

Now hold out your hand, and tell me how far away is Heaven.

Excellent "demonstration" friend.

In the following quotation,

when you read about "the Resurrection", think "The Kingdom",

for that is what Philip is talking about (imho).

"Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error.

If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live,

when they die they will receive nothing."

The Gospel of Philip

Edited July 15, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Fawzo]

Excellent "demonstration" friend.

In the following quotation,

when you read about "the Resurrection", think "The Kingdom",

for that is what Philip is talking about (imho).

"Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error.

If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live,

when they die they will receive nothing."

The Gospel of Philip

Thank you friend!

I was almost certain you were going to respond with this one from the Gospel of Thomas.

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

Thanks for the Phillip quote. I do need to reread Phillip. I skimmed through that Gospel way too quickly only once, more interested in where Jesus had his lips than anything else lol

[Bro. Hex]

Thank you friend!

I was almost certain you were going to respond with this one from the Gospel of Thomas...

Thanks for the Phillip quote. I do need to reread Phillip. I skimmed through that Gospel way too quickly only once, more interested in where Jesus had his lips than anything else lol

Philip is much harder to understand, and isn't enumerated the way Thomas is, for ease of reference. Still, whenever he has something to say (that I am able to understand), he has an interesting and unusual way of putting things. So I like to dust off my copy every once-in-a-while and give Philip some air-time ;>)

[Pete]

I would like to hear from Rabbio on the topic of Judaism influence on some of these Gnostic and other books.

I think we always have just one side of the coin when we discuss things from just a Christian perspective. I know a number of Jews who read the NT and saw it as very Jewish, but do not come to the same conclusions of the mainstream Christianity.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

I would like to hear from Rabbio on the topic of Judaism influence on some of these Gnostic and other books.

I think we always have just one side of the coin when we discuss things from just a Christian perspective. I know a number of Jews who read the NT and saw it as very Jewish, but do not come to the same conclusions of the mainstream Christianity.

Good thoughts Pete. I wonder if there is any mention of a demiurge in the Kabbalah?

[Bro. Hex]

I would like to hear from Rabbio on the topic of Judaism influence on some of these Gnostic and other books.

I think we always have just one side of the coin when we discuss things from just a Christian perspective. I know a number of Jews who read the NT and saw it as very Jewish, but do not come to the same conclusions of the mainstream Christianity.

You may have to send a PM to Rabbio, Pete.

He "bowed out" on this thread a while back

when it was getting fairly contentious.

[Pete]

You may have to send a PM to Rabbio, Pete.

He "bowed out" on this thread a while back

when it was getting fairly contentious.

Yes it was a little unpleasant.

I have sent a PM to Rabbio.