How Well Does Our Ability To Create Religious Doctrine Hold Up In Cour

[RevTbird]

I have been ordained here for almost a year now and I mainly became ordained to provide a service to my friends who require services such as marriage tailored to their religious beliefs.

I personally believe each person's own beliefs are his religion and should be considered a complete different religion and thereby he should be able to create his own doctrine and practices and rituals. One of the beliefs I have chosen for myself is that body modifications including tattoos, piercings scars and even shaving can have an effect on the energy flowing through the body which is used for Magick. To this end I maintain a shaped soul patch or goatee of sorts as I believe it increases my ability to preform Magick and rituals.

When I was hired at a fast food place in April I told the manager that I can not shave off my facial hair and he said it was no problem even though the employee handbook said all employees must be clean shaven. Since then we have gotten a new manager who did not say anything about this and so it was not brought up. Then some time in Sept. we were bought out by another company. They stated that they will be enforcing the clean shaven rule and I once again talked with my General Manager about it to which he claimed he could do nothing. So I went to the District Manager who said he would talk with Human Resources. This was 6 days before the Oct 1st deadline that we be in compliance with all of the new company's rules. The deadline came and went and there was no mention of anything so I figured they did not care any longer.

I now have recently had to talk with HR and one of the owners over an incident with a shift manager and told them about how she had said my religion was crap and I was acting childish and should shave my face. Now after this the owner has said she requires documentation about my facial hair, she did not elaborate but I believe she wanted a priest or some such religious authority to confirm that it is a religious belief. (Note I know that as per The Civil Rights Act of 1969 Title VII I am not required to have documentation but I figure it would be easier to give her what she wants rather then fight her)

If it went to court would I be able to stand up and say that I as an ordained minister of the ULC can testify that this is a sincerely held religious belief?

[Verisoph]

I have been ordained here for almost a year now and I mainly became ordained to provide a service to my friends who require services such as marriage tailored to their religious beliefs.

I personally believe each person's own beliefs are his religion and should be considered a complete different religion and thereby he should be able to create his own doctrine and practices and rituals. One of the beliefs I have chosen for myself is that body modifications including tattoos, piercings scars and even shaving can have an effect on the energy flowing through the body which is used for Magick. To this end I maintain a shaped soul patch or goatee of sorts as I believe it increases my ability to preform Magick and rituals.

When I was hired at a fast food place in April I told the manager that I can not shave off my facial hair and he said it was no problem even though the employee handbook said all employees must be clean shaven. Since then we have gotten a new manager who did not say anything about this and so it was not brought up. Then some time in Sept. we were bought out by another company. They stated that they will be enforcing the clean shaven rule and I once again talked with my General Manager about it to which he claimed he could do nothing. So I went to the District Manager who said he would talk with Human Resources. This was 6 days before the Oct 1st deadline that we be in compliance with all of the new company's rules. The deadline came and went and there was no mention of anything so I figured they did not care any longer.

I now have recently had to talk with HR and one of the owners over an incident with a shift manager and told them about how she had said my religion was crap and I was acting childish and should shave my face. Now after this the owner has said she requires documentation about my facial hair, she did not elaborate but I believe she wanted a priest or some such religious authority to confirm that it is a religious belief. (Note I know that as per The Civil Rights Act of 1969 Title VII I am not required to have documentation but I figure it would be easier to give her what she wants rather then fight her)

If it went to court would I be able to stand up and say that I as an ordained minister of the ULC can testify that this is a sincerely held religious belief?

Sounds to me like one of those things where you won't know how it will go until you try.

You can stand up in court and testify that it is a sincerely held personal belief, but you can't say that it is a belief of the ULC. Anyone can get ordained by the ULC just by asking, including people who think they must be clean shaven in order to be spiritually pure. So, citing your ordination isn't likely to bolster your case. Rather, it just might make you look desperate, and end up prejudicing a judge or jury against you.

I think you'd be better off calling attention to other religions that have guidelines regarding facial hair; Islam, Judaism, Amish, etc. Even the Biblical story about Samson might help since that is somewhat similar to your belief (the power of hair).

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Edited November 6, 2009 by Verisoph

[RevTbird]

Sounds to me like one of those things where you won't know how it will go until you try.

You can stand up in court and testify that it is a sincerely held personal belief, but you can't say that it is a belief of the ULC. Anyone can get ordained by the ULC just by asking, including people who think they must be clean shaven in order to be spiritually pure. So, citing your ordination isn't likely to bolster your case. Rather, it just might make you look desperate, and end up prejudicing a judge or jury against you.

I think you'd be better off calling attention to other religions that have guidelines regarding facial hair; Islam, Judaism, Amish, etc. Even the Biblical story about Samson might help since that is somewhat similar to your belief (the power of hair).

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Well i guess what Im asking is if the owner is asking for some religious authority to tell her its true would I be able to do that as I am my own religious authority. I am not saying I am claiming it as a belief of the ULC as the ULC encompasses a wide range of beliefs, even conflicting ones and I would never attempt to speak religiously for anyone else besides myself let alone a whole group of diverse people.

[Verisoph]

Well i guess what Im asking is if the owner is asking for some religious authority to tell her its true would I be able to do that as I am my own religious authority.

Yes, you would able to tell them that, but whether or not telling them that actually convinces them of anything remains to be seen. It will help if you don't mention to them that you became ordained online, for free, and that in less than three minutes, they can become ordained, too, regardless of their beliefs.

As a citizen of the US, you have the right to be your own religious authority. That carries a lot more weight than ordination by any church.

I am not saying I am claiming it as a belief of the ULC as the ULC encompasses a wide range of beliefs, even conflicting ones and I would never attempt to speak religiously for anyone else besides myself let alone a whole group of diverse people.

Good for you! A lot of people in the ULC try very hard to speak for everyone.

BTW: Welcome to the forum!

[mdtaylor]

Go find another job. he rule was in place when you hired on. You should have declined the job in the first place.

[mark 45]

while i agree it was in place when he was hired,but it was exempted(whether offically by company management is a point to be seen)for him,then the new company wants to enforce it because one of their representives thinks his religion is crap.

i think he has a valid case,if he chooses to persue it.however,whether it is importent enough to him to do so or not is an entirely different story.most componies do not want to get involved in an employees religious beliefs,or observences.however,if they want,a person can be let go,espically if it is a just cause enviorment(just cause they can),or at will employeer.

guess he needs to decide for himself.

[Fawzo]

Seems to me his Soul Patch isn't boosting his Magickal Powers enough to remedy his problem through the use of Magick and ritual, so if it was a job I liked and didn't want to lose I would lose the Goatee.

I would also take note of this failure and quite possibly look for another more powerful focal point for my thought forms, or use my Soul Patch and Magickal powers to help me look for another job,

Edited November 7, 2009 by Fawzo

[mdtaylor]

while i agree it was in place when he was hired,but it was exempted(whether offically by company management is a point to be seen)for him,then the new company wants to enforce it because one of their representives thinks his religion is crap.

i think he has a valid case,if he chooses to persue it.however,whether it is importent enough to him to do so or not is an entirely different story.most componies do not want to get involved in an employees religious beliefs,or observences.however,if they want,a person can be let go,espically if it is a just cause enviorment(just cause they can),or at will employeer.

guess he needs to decide for himself.

No, the litmus test is whether or not his church has an established, published, doctrine. We all know what the ULC doctrine is and it will not survive any legal proceeding.

If, on the other hand, he had previously established a church that displays the ULC name, and had formerly adopted a strict doctrine and his beliefs were upheld by that doctrine, then it might. With absolutely no documentation it's just not going to happen.

Of course, that's just my opinion...

[narey]

No, the litmus test is whether or not his church has an established, published, doctrine. We all know what the ULC doctrine is and it will not survive any legal proceeding.

If, on the other hand, he had previously established a church that displays the ULC name, and had formerly adopted a strict doctrine and his beliefs were upheld by that doctrine, then it might. With absolutely no documentation it's just not going to happen.

Of course, that's just my opinion...

truth is all ordinations by ULC WILL stand the test of a court battle but insofar as personally held beliefs such as in this case the best thing for to do or have done is gather all information and backing needed to file 501 with irs

so when an issue arises there is no question as to the legal standing...in such a case they would either exempt you from the rule or more likely transfer you to a different position that does not require the shaving of the gouty, and if they did fire you then you would have full legal rights to sue them for religious reasons

[mdtaylor]

truth is all ordinations by ULC WILL stand the test of a court battle but insofar as personally held beliefs such as in this case the best thing for to do or have done is gather all information and backing needed to file 501 with irs

so when an issue arises there is no question as to the legal standing...in such a case they would either exempt you from the rule or more likely transfer you to a different position that does not require the shaving of the gouty, and if they did fire you then you would have full legal rights to sue them for religious reasons

As I said, if he had previously established..... Of course, how much does he want to spend defending his rights over a fast food job?