Dan56

How come someone who believes in God can't be a free thinker, but someone who does not believe in God is a free thinker? Sounds a little silly to me... What your actually saying is that anyone who doesn't agree with you cannot possibly be a 'free thinker'.. And that's about as closed minded as it gets.

I didn't know you were? I think you simply compared Christians to Nazis and told me to take a hike.

When I say that I'm put-off by religion, I simply mean that I oppose Catholicism, Pentecostalism, etc.. I simply agree and believe with what Christ taught, and that doesn't need defending.. I don't know why that angers you? From my pov, whether a person loves what Christ taught or hates everything he stood for, doesn't make them closed minded. But I can understand why you think that a person who commits themselves to a certain belief, cannot be open minded.. Its kind of like getting married, after accepting and committing yourself to one woman, your no longer permitted to freely consider another one. So in that respect, I found what I was looking for, and am content.

Thanks, I was also unaware of any rules that prohibited Christians from certain topics. No problem, I understand that I represent the very thing your running from, and I was the last person you probably wanted to hear from.. But my post was not responding to you, it was simply stating that I don't regard all people of faith to be closed-minded, although some certainly are.. It was also not my intent to push my beliefs at all.. I can relate to your angst against Christianity, I was an atheist for the first 15 years of my life myself, and I'm still put-off by religion.

Somewhat rude! My opinion is not intervention... I am going away... By the same token, I'm sure that you and Jonathan will stay out of every Christian thread, or any topic dealing with God. Neither of you are religious, nor do you believe in God, so you really have no business wallowing or intervening in Christian topics, so please stay away. Its a 2-sided fence.

No problem, I probably should not have posted on this thread... My simple point was that not everyone who's chosen to believe something was indoctrinated or are at odds with their cognitive reasoning.. I wasn't commenting on your personal feelings or anyone else's, but just refuting that a person who believes in a god is incapable of independent thought. That's like saying that an atheist who's determined that no god exist, cannot be a free thinker. Just because a person reaches a definitive conclusion, doesn't mean they are brainwashed and can't think for themselves.. To the contrary, making decisions requires you to think, so in that respect, I believe we are all 'free thinkers' . Just my opinion of course.

I prefer 'free thinker', I think we are all free thinkers.. Just because someone becomes convinced of something, does not mean they've lost the ability to think objectively or are no longer capable of independent thought. Whether a person believes in a God, gods, or rejects the existence of a God or gods, does not presume they've been indoctrinated into a cult like atmosphere where they are incapable of free thought. We can all reach different conclusions, only because we are all free thinkers. That's why I believe what I do, outside influence was not a factor in my decision.

I agree with Rev Bogovac, when all systems fail, your on your own.. I was in a bad flood once, house was under water.. Government did absolutely nothing except declare it a natural disaster zone, which made me eligible for a low interest loan. No other help or aid was made available.

If the person whom the offense is committed against doesn't know that you regret offending them, then yes, I believe its necessary to apologize. God may know your sorry that you stepped on someones foot, but the person limping on one foot who doesn't hear an "excuse me, I'm sorry", doesn't have a clue if you failed to verbally express it.

When a person sins in ignorance, or is convinced they are doing right, I believe a Christian is obligated to forgive, because that person is unknowingly transgressing the law.. That's why I wrote; "Or if a person unknowingly sins against you, you forgive the debt." Those screaming for the death of Christ were convince he was guilty of blasphemy, they didn't know who he was.. If they had known, then blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would have been unforgivable.

No.. I just think there's a presumption of repentance with forgiveness.. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins" (1 John 1:9). The 'IF" denotes a condition. We are instructed to forgive others even as our Father in heaven has forgiven us.. But God does not automatically forgive everyone, and neither should we. We confess our sins to God and ask for forgiveness (repent). Luke explains it a little better than Matthew; "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." (Luke 17:3&4). So the way I look at it is that if someone regrets their transgression against you and ask for forgiveness, a Christian is obligated to forgive them. Or if a person unknowingly sins against you, you forgive the debt. But I don't believe we are expected to forgive deliberate unrepentant sin, even as God does not forgive it.

Certainly true.... I was not advocating the necessity to lash-out in a violent range whenever a person feels wronged. If someone accidentally steps on your toe, its obviously an over-reaction to have a tantrum and throw a hissy fit.. But I believe 'anger' is a natural reaction when intentional harm is directed your way, e.g; someone steals your car, or burns down your house. I don't believe God is a neutral third party when one person harms or trespasses against another either. That's like saying that if someone shoots your dog, its between the shooter and your dog., and your unaffected by the incident.. In a scenario where an aggressor creates victims via his harmful and deliberate actions, God promises vengeance. Jesus said; "For I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matthew 9:13). From a biblical pov, forgiveness requires repentance.

I think that most people, when punched in the face, would not feel joy or happiness, but anger. Anyone has an option to forgive, but forgiving someone who has done you wrong, and who intends to continue to do you harm, seems foolish to me, even dangerous.

When push comes to shove, we are all Agnostic, everything else is faith. An agnostic is anyone who doesn't claim to know whether any gods exist or not. Since nothing outside of a material or physical existence can be proven, any phenomenon beyond what can be observed, is unsubstantiated and cannot be known, it can only taken and accepted by faith or conjecture. In other words, no one knows nothing, labels are just an indication of what we've chosen to believe. An Atheist can no more know that a god doesn't exist than a Christian can know that a God does exist, but each has faith in what they've chosen to believe. The truth is not what we think, it exist beyond what we know. If we are honest with ourselves, we probably all start out as Agnostic, then we start to think and attach a label to what we conclude... jmo

Sound like a description of heaven.. It would be very difficult to maintain all those attributes on earth. When surrounded by stress, anxiety, work, problems, trouble, rude irresponsible people, pain, etc, its practically impossible to start each day off with a drink and a smile. Unless that drink includes a shot or two of vodka . Otherwise, joy, happiness, and song, are quickly shelved and replaced with cantankerous attributes. I guess that's the difference between an "Angels Dream" and real life.

Thanks........... I personally don't have a problem with not sending drunk drivers to jail, as your mother put it, we should all be afforded an opportunity to learn from our mistakes.. But I do believe that when a drunk driver hurts or kills someone else, there ought to be some repercussions (jail time). Driving drunk is a mistake, but it turns into a crime when you hurt someone else.. My opinion of course.

You left us hanging in suspense .. So what did the judge decide to do? My sister was also hit by a drunk driver in Florida and was seriously injured, and her companion was killed.. The man that hit them had been busted 6 times for drunk driving, and was attending classes for his most previous DUI.. The drunk is finally serving time for manslaughter now.. I'm sure your Mom was a compassionate woman, but how would she feel if the judge had took her advise, only to learn later that the man she felt sorry for had later killed someone else while driving drunk? Quite the conundrum eh?

Cruel? Tell that to the dead victims of the drunken driver.

If prison was like that, people wouldn't want to get out.. In fact, some would commit crimes just to get in The threat of doing hard time ought to be a deterrent for committing crimes, not an incentive.. I can't imagine providing a serial rapist all the broads he wants while he's in jail, or a drug addict all the drugs he wants.. Imagine how the victims of these criminals would feel when prisons provide their assailants with a sort of utopia. Making the punishment easy, even enjoyable, would sent the crime rates sky-rocketing.. jmo

You've always seemed super sensitive to the Christian fundamentalist point of view, but you should not feel persecuted when you hear it.. Of course I think I'm right, that's why I believe as I do, but I feel no obligation to 'correct' others, nor do I expect agreement or appeasement.. I write what I think and believe, and it usually doesn't afford me the opportunity to mutually agree with others, not without compromising what I've personally chosen to believe. I do respect everyone's opinion, no matter how crazy or opposite it might be from mine, that's what ULC is all about.

I'm afraid I'll need a quote of those bigoted things I allegedly said? Because I don't agree with the opinions or actions of some people who don't happen to be of my race or religion, doesn't make me a bigot.. That's like saying that if I condemn Hitler, I'm not a bigot because I'm also of some German descent, but if I condemn the actions of Osama bin Laden, I'm a bigot because I'm not a Muslim . Evil is evil, it doesn't matter what race, religion, or gender is committing it. Christ called those people murderers, and not long after they were screaming for the crucifixion of an innocent man. So was Jesus a bigot, or was he simply telling the truth? Imo, if you choose the former, your logic is flawed and irrational.

Its my belief that God forgives those who repent, and He expects us to do likewise; "If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him" (Luke 17:3). So your assertion that "God chooses forgiveness - always" does not ring true for me. I don't think God forgives non-'believers or the unrepentant, but is quick to forgive the repentant believer. When the malefactor crucified with Christ said that he (the thief) deserved his punishment, Jesus did not disagree with him. Our deeds have consequences, that's why there's a heaven and a hell, God's reward and God's wrath. jmo

How does my quoting Christ make me a bigot? You do know that Christ was a Jew don't you? He told them that they were doing the deeds of the devil, who was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.. A Jew telling other Jews the truth has nothing to do with bigotry.. Ironically, those other Jews were demanding his death shortly thereafter, which imo, gives credibility to his charges against them; "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." This saying was directed to the Pharisees and Jews who were questioning Jesus, not all the Jews, so he clearly was not antisemitic, as attested by the 12 Jewish disciples he asked to follow him.. You inevitably find bigotry where your looking for it, even when it doesn't exist.

I'd have to agree with Jonathan, there comes a point when some people are not entitled to be treated with dignity and respect.. Respect is earned by our deeds, and if a persons purpose becomes detrimental to everyone around them, we would be foolish to respect them. Not everyone is a child of God either, Jesus told the Pharisees and Jews; "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44).