Jonathan H. B. Lobl

This is getting oddly complicated. Perhaps you meant "unaware"? Meaning that you were fully conscious but not paying attention? Like walking down the street and not stepping in the dog poo, because you were on auto-pilot. You were not aware of avoiding the dog poo. You just walked around it without paying attention. In other words, how most of us get through a day.

Continuing: We have learned from Isaiah chapter 45 (above) -- that God created Darkness. Now we turn to the opening lines of Genesis. Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. What does this tell us? Look at the sequence. Darkness is described, before Light is created. Darkness existed before Light. After Light is created, God divides the Light from the Darkness. Divides? The way that salt water can be divided between salt and water? Evidently, Darkness has existence and is not the simple absence of Light. And Isaiah 45 is clear that God created Darkness.

That is a problem for Monotheism. The Creator of all things -- is the Creator of ALL things. Isaiah 45: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

There is the example of the black hole. An object with such massive gravity, that light can not escape from it. I think that qualifies as creating darkness.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations I find this verse highly interesting. Darkness is not the absence of Light. Darkness is created. There is also the small issue of good and evil. I though this might make an interesting conversation.

Thank you. It is my understanding of the Agnostic way. I have questions. I have doubts. Very few answers.

Perhaps. But if there is something to be heard, I think I will hear it better if I'm meditating. Not climbing a rock. Psalm 46:10 King James Version (KJV) Be still, and know that I am God: I can also cherry pick.

Life is not reasonable. There is mystery. Not quite the same thing as God. Only an observation. Not an argument.

Just so. I understand the symbolism. Still, if the Kingdom of Heaven is within, there is no place to go, nothing to attain and nothing to climb. There is an old Zen monk 's lament. "I know I'm already an enlightened master. Why am I still miserable?"

Of course. While we are at it: Old Man Winter -- even if that venerable deity is used to sell snow tires. Jack Frost, a minor weather deity. At Valentine's day, Cupid is Cupid. Not even thinly disguised. Of course, we forget about the lead tipped arrows. Father Time. Always a man. Never a woman. At New Year's Eve, we have all seen the old year as an old man, being replaced by Baby New Year. Death rides a pale horse and carries a syth. Then again, what do people say when shooting craps? "C'mon Seven. Daddy needs a new pair of shoes!" After all, nobody understands the need for new footwear, like Hermes, Messenger of the gods. We know about his winged sandals. Messengers have sore feet. The Fates. Even Nat King Cole sang -- "if the Fates allow" -- at Christmas time. Perry White -- Clark Kent's editor at the Daily Planet, was famous for yelling -- By Jove! I could almost suspect that Monotheism had not won out.

Your list is ecclectic. I would like to suggest another. Therapeutic Touch by Dolores Krieger. It's a practical guide for using spiritual energy to heal. It's in the idiom of professional nursing, instead of mysticism. It changed my life. Welcome to the Board.

Self righteousness is about what I had in mind. I make it a point to keep the same face where ever I go. I left some Skeptic groups -- big S -- because I said Therapeutic Touch. I left some Atheist groups because I said Agnostic. You must encounter that kind of crap all the time. The people who know the least about something, are the loudest in denouncing it. How smug in their ignorance. This is what I had in mind when I said that they stink of piety. Nothing at all the way you mean it. It's not always the ignorant. Sometimes, it's the intellectuals who really should know better. In various videos, Sam Harris talks about how he used to use the Greek gods as examples. He used to say that nobody takes Zeus and Poseidon seriously any more. Then he started getting hate mail from the people who still follow the old gods. He was shocked. It is amazing how such smart people can be so stupid about some things. I feel a rant coming on. I'll stop now.

It was a context specific sarcasm. The piety of the true disbeliever. That is, the people who claim to be champions of reason and logic. The people who clamp down on perceived "error" like a bulldog. That piety.

What you call a hard skeptic is what I call a true believer. Or a true disbeliever. Same difference. Yes. They can be irritating. Sometimes, they stink of piety.

Just so. The beach is more my style.

Welcome to the board.

Only you would accuse me ob being God.

Throughout these threads, I have been trying to get a working definition of God. People have been laughing at me for my persistence in this matter. The best I can come up with -- that isn't just playing with words -- is the God of the Bible. Sure I can call my higher self God. I can call the Universe God. I can call Nature God. I can say that God is the state of oneness or absolute unity. In the end, I think this is an abuse of language. God is God. I am not God -- despite Pantheism.

Thank you. I'm inclined to perceptions of abstract forces. That's my way. There is no reason why may way should be your way. I'm happy that your way works for you.

In common usage, the many paths up the mountain lead to God. That is not what I'm looking for. I'm not clear on what I am looking for; but it's not God. By all means, let the mountain climbers climb. Let them take the path of their choice. I wish them well on their quest. I'm quite certain that what I want, is not on top of the mountain. By any route.

The political context, under Presidents Johnson and Nixon, was the Vietnam war. Now, we have a president who has no problems with the army torturing prisoners -- who told the police to "rough up" prisoners. Yes. "Question Authority." I'm a little vague about the timeline. I think Kirby was deeply influenced by the conformist society of the Fifties. I was born in 1953. The late fifties was when the phrase "long haired freaks" was popular. If a man had a beard, children could throw rocks at him and their parents would not correct. 1954 was when, "Under God" was added to the Pledge, to distinguish us from the Godless Commies. The Blacklist was in flower. They were fearful times. If I remember Kirby's biography, he was a minister in two different churches. From this, he clearly developed an attitude towards religious authority.

Perhaps there are. But before we start climbing, is that where we want to go? Are you sure? Letting others pick our goal for us is not a great idea.

This I understand. I have a background in Reiki and Therapeutic Touch. I know about demands for empirical data.

I agree, except that I would put more emphasis on Kirby's rage. He had a lot of anger towards the establishment. That also fit the times. One of the key sayings of the time was "Question authority".

Staggering is the word. Fame, glory, wealth, sex and traumatic brain injury. Frequently ending with memory loss, Parkinson's type symptoms, depression and suicide.