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Washington State Attacks Freedom Of Religion

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Bearhugs,

You mentioned it above, but I'd like to repeat it: find another job. I honestly believe this could be a "no win" situation, and you're up against powerful people who don't give a flip about you.

I agree that the "let me check with the person 'above you' who really knows your faith better than you" crap is annoying. But, you know what? They don't care. You can't make them care. All they care about is money.

Rev. Hxaosanto

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Problem is, this is not a contribution. It is a statutory required payment as a condition of employment with the state. The only thing gained by claiming a religious exemption is the LOSS of insurance provided by the union.

If you call that a loss, that is...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

as it should be. The point of the union is to provide labor with leverage so they may stand on an equal footing in negotiations. The individual employee has no leverage.

BH, It seems to me that you don't object to being associated with unions so much as object to being associated with THIS union, which you represent to be corrupt. To me, addressing the corruption is the correct path, but, I am me, and you are you.

Good luck.

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Problem is, this is not a contribution. It is a statutory required payment as a condition of employment with the state. The only thing gained by claiming a religious exemption is the LOSS of insurance provided by the union.

If you call that a loss, that is...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

as it should be. The point of the union is to provide labor with leverage so they may stand on an equal footing in negotiations. The individual employee has no leverage.

BH, It seems to me that you don't object to being associated with unions so much as object to being associated with THIS union, which you represent to be corrupt. To me, addressing the corruption is the correct path, but, I am me, and you are you.

Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is what I am referring to when I mentioned the "closed shop." Even though she may believe the vote to become union was unfair, it still occurred. That legally obligates every employee to contribute to the union establishment. When she was hired it was a closed shop, and even if she was there before the union came in, she knows that it became a closed shop. There is no way around that.

~Rev. LLEACHII

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I hope my view here might be of some assistance.

Simply put, my own belief prohibits me from being part of any organized body that practices contrary to my opinions and beliefs. I once belonged to a labor union. I had very bad experiences with the union, going up to the point of my vehicle being damaged when I left the union. I can not allow myself to be associated with an organization where socio-political beliefs are FORCED on people even if it be political instead of religious in nature. This stems from my belief that religion is in fact a philosophy of life. In order for me to sucessfully practice my religion, I must live my life completely under the tenants and not be a "sunday morning christian."

If that last part offended anyone, so be it. I know far too many who believe they can act however they wish and still claim to be of a certain religion that forbids such action. I will not be compelled into membership in any organization no matter its core structure. This is a philosophy, it is my religion, it is my life. Anyone who questions this belief is questioning the core of my religion. I will happily discuss with them my belief, but will not tolerate intentional ignorance.

I sincerely hope this view helps you somewhat. It is my reasons why I have refused to join unions in the past and also the reason why some charities will never receive my donations. I council you to follow your own inner voice no matter what others say. If you can withstand the hardships that await you, then do so knowing you have at least one person who supports your philosophy fully.

~Bryan

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....If you can withstand the hardships that await you, then do so knowing you have at least one person who supports your philosophy fully.
I support her not wanting to join a union. There is just something plain wrong with being forced to join an organization against your will. It's the religious objection part I disagree with.

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I hope my view here might be of some assistance.

Simply put, my own belief prohibits me from being part of any organized body that practices contrary to my opinions and beliefs.  I once belonged to a labor union.  I had very bad experiences with the union, going up to the point of my vehicle being damaged when I left the union.  I can not allow myself to be associated with an organization where socio-political beliefs are FORCED on people even if it be political instead of religious in nature.  This stems from my belief that religion is in fact a philosophy of life.  In order for me to sucessfully practice my religion, I must live my life completely under the tenants and not be a "sunday morning christian." 

If that last part offended anyone, so be it.  I know far too many who believe they can act however they wish and still claim to be of a certain religion that forbids such action.  I will not be compelled into membership in any organization no matter its core structure.  This is a philosophy, it is my religion, it is my life. Anyone who questions this belief is questioning the core of my religion.  I will happily discuss with them my belief, but will not tolerate intentional ignorance. 

I sincerely hope this view helps you somewhat.  It is my reasons why I have refused to join unions in the past and also the reason why some charities will never receive my donations.  I council you to follow your own inner voice no matter what others say.  If you can withstand the hardships that await you, then do so knowing you have at least one person who supports your philosophy fully.

~Bryan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bryan, thank you for being supportive and understanding. :) It is refreshing to find a kindred soul who recognizes that one's life, religion, philosophy, values, conscience are not separate distinct components that can be isolated and compromised piece by piece, by others.

You are a kind person, and I appreciate what you said :thumbu:

Cheryl

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I don't see that as unreasonable. What I do see as unreasonable is trying to claim a whole state is attacking religious freedom by faking a religious exemption to unions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave, you are out of line to accuse me of faking anything. Please quit making rude posts.

Thank you for considering this request.

Cheryl

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I don't see that as unreasonable.  What I do see as unreasonable is trying to claim a whole state is attacking religious freedom by faking a religious exemption to unions.
Dave, you are out of line to accuse me of faking anything. Please quit making rude posts.

Thank you for considering this request.

I will... as soon as you quit making outlandish statements such as the state of Washington is attacking anyone's freedom of religion.

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Problem is, this is not a contribution. It is a statutory required payment as a condition of employment with the state. The only thing gained by claiming a religious exemption is the LOSS of insurance provided by the union.

If you call that a loss, that is...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

as it should be. The point of the union is to provide labor with leverage so they may stand on an equal footing in negotiations. The individual employee has no leverage.

BH, It seems to me that you don't object to being associated with unions so much as object to being associated with THIS union, which you represent to be corrupt. To me, addressing the corruption is the correct path, but, I am me, and you are you.

Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Kokigami! It's like the cliche "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely". This union gives me heartburn, because it is a private organization controlling public employees, and the state bargained away the rights of the individual employees, and gave authority over employee related issues and concerns to a private entity. The union and those like it, those that represent public employees, are building empires. It's happening in Maine as well as Washington, and I hear maybe in New Hampshire...tax payers don't need to pay taxes to have civil servants who are forced into paying a private organization to keep their civil service jobs. It's your (speaking in generalization) tax dollars at work, in a convoluted way. Another reason why government costs so much.

Along the way during this discussion, several have questioned my motives, told me my objections are legal or political rather than religious. I do have legal objection and a foundation for it; an opinion that is not shared by all but by enough. I have political objection to it, as the chaos created by the situation has cost the taxpayers we serve millions of dollars so far. My religious objections do intermingle with legal/political aspects. But it is my nature to be holistic in my approach to life. My job with the state is that of vocational consultant for workers injured on the job. I was drawn to the profession because it gives me an opportunity to assist injured workers who feel lost, to identify and examine their options and to be empowered to make personal decisions based on what is right for each of them as individuals, with an understanding of possible ramifications. I am facing my religious exemption acknowledging an understanding of the possible ramifications.

I appreciate ULC ministers accepting our collective commitment to doing what's right, and that the individual has to find their own way. Respecting my conscience is a core value in my religious belief system. I cannot claim membership in any ordinary organized religious group because every single religion as it is commonly understood (by me), dictates something that does not feel right to me in every instance. So I do my best to respect all who belong to organized religions, those who don't worry about religion, those religions that affected/influenced my ancestors, those who seek their spiritual path in an individual way, and those who think religion is a crock. I am not faking anything by just being me, and my spirituality and religious beliefs are parts of who I am that will be open to growth.

Whatever gave me my conscience, I am obligated to follow it. I will fight to the extent that I can when I come face to face with corruption...and I will disassociate with corruption to the extent I am able.

It's been an interesting discussion of polarized views of what constitutes someone's religion.

Thanks for all the time you've spent talking to me about my issues.

:) Cheryl

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(please note, I haven't had a chance to look at some of the recent posts, but I wanted to post this before the thread got cold)

My apologies, I thought that not only were you seeking support in this matter; but a way to actually succeed in legitimately using religious reasons for not contributing to the union. I for one am not debating, but laying my knowledge and ideas on the table to help you fight this battle. I believe those who provided a rundown of some very informative points have given you enough substance in preparing a response to the union and your employer that may actually work. Explaining about your church, the ULC's doctrine and especially the point below will be successful in preparing your argument. I would shy away from giving them "Reverend Cheryl's Theology 101;" but more of a general overview of the doctrine you have chosen to follow.

Let me close by saying I think this was a good discussion and I hope you have some ammunition to take with you.

~Rev. LLEACHII

I disagree. In order to prevail in court, she only needs to establish that ones personal religious guideposts do not, of necessity, come from or coincide with the teachings of an organization. As for ULC, we have a doctrine, do only that which is right, and each person has the authority and obligation to determine what that is. If a person finds, after due reflection, that contributing to a Union is not within the scope of what is right,  then our doctrine effectively prohibits contributing.
Edited by lleachii

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I don't see that as unreasonable.  What I do see as unreasonable is trying to claim a whole state is attacking religious freedom by faking a religious exemption to unions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave, you are out of line to accuse me of faking anything. Please quit making rude posts.

Thank you for considering this request.

Cheryl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He isn't accusing you of anything you haven't admitted to already. Your objectiosn to this union are not religious in nature, that is simply the only route they are offering you out so you latched onto it.

If they had said you must join the union unless you are a registered republican I do not doubt for a second that you would be down at the county clerks office to change your political afiliation that same day.

My advice would be to find a new job. You dont want to do what your current employer wants you do to, so find a new employer.

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(please note, I haven't had a chance to look at some of the recent posts, but I wanted to post this before the thread got cold)

My apologies, I thought that not only were you seeking support in this matter; but a way to actually succeed in legitimately using religious reasons for not contributing to the union. I for one am not debating, but laying my knowledge and ideas on the table to help you fight this battle. I believe those who provided a rundown of some very informative points have given you enough substance in preparing a response to the union and your employer that may actually work. Explaining about your church, the ULC's doctrine and especially the point below will be successful in preparing your argument. I would shy away from giving them "Reverend Cheryl's Theology 101;" but more of a general overview of the doctrine you have chosen to follow.

Let me close by saying I think this was a good discussion and I hope you have some ammunition to take with you.

~Rev. LLEACHII

I disagree. In order to prevail in court, she only needs to establish that ones personal religious guideposts do not, of necessity, come from or coincide with the teachings of an organization. As for ULC, we have a doctrine, do only that which is right, and each person has the authority and obligation to determine what that is. If a person finds, after due reflection, that contributing to a Union is not within the scope of what is right,  then our doctrine effectively prohibits contributing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rev. LLEACHII,

Please know I DO appreciate and consider all the suggestions you have offered to me on this issue. I appreciate the time you and others have taken to bring points to my attention, and yes, those points, concerns or arguments will be very helpful to me. I'm sorry if I offended you, and that our ability to communicate is limited by postings, because so much of communication is lost or misunderstood when we are just writing instead of talking face to face.

It's a challenging issue, and it has been a challenging discussion. Thanks again for choosing to take the time to help me look at the situation from different perspectives.

Really, what got me riled up with this union/state issue was having other co-workers whom I believe are 7th Day Adventists, having to go through the validation process this union has chosen for religious exemption. There are co-workers in my office who tremble at authority, who are meek and gentle by nature, and not the types to confront. Being a former union steward, I've certainly stuck my neck out many times to make confrontations of authority when it seemed necessary. At this time, even though I've claimed the religious exemption, both managers, co-workers, and union staff still call me or stop by my office for consultation on issues of which they think I have expertise. Instead of having contract provided time without loss of pay to act as an advocate/steward, I now take annual leave to assist those employees who request help. Like one woman in my office with a current EEOC complaint filed...I'll take vacation to go to her hearings, etc.

Sorry to ramble. I do appreciate you!

:) Cheryl

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I don't see that as unreasonable.  What I do see as unreasonable is trying to claim a whole state is attacking religious freedom by faking a religious exemption to unions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dave, you are out of line to accuse me of faking anything. Please quit making rude posts.

Thank you for considering this request.

Cheryl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He isn't accusing you of anything you haven't admitted to already. Your objectiosn to this union are not religious in nature, that is simply the only route they are offering you out so you latched onto it.

If they had said you must join the union unless you are a registered republican I do not doubt for a second that you would be down at the county clerks office to change your political afiliation that same day.

My advice would be to find a new job. You dont want to do what your current employer wants you do to, so find a new employer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL :lol: When I vote, I look at the INDIVIDUAL not their party affiliation. And no, I would not register republican. I choose not to vote in primaries when the powers that be tell me I have to pick one party to choose from.

Have a nice day,

:P Cheryl

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Hey Bear...clarify something for me... are you simply objecting to PAYING the union dues, or are you objecting to membership in the union?

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Cheryl; (From a fellow Washingtonian,) I tried to get out of the stinkin' union at a large aircraft company I was at here in the South Puget Sound area. Mainly to get away from the Union's bureaucratic **. I won't mention the name, but if they make a hard landing they make a sound like "Boeing!!" Anyway, in Washington, if you don't join the union, you still have to pay the same amount as if you were paying dues. Let me repeat that:You still have to pay the dues, it just goes to some sort of "Association Fund", and if you change positions, get a promotion, lateral transfer, whatever, you have to go through the same exercise all over again.

Good Luck , I hope you are successful.

Blessings,

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Cheryl; (From a fellow Washingtonian,) I tried to get out of the stinkin' union at a large aircraft company I was at here in the South Puget Sound area. Mainly to get away from the Union's bureaucratic **. I won't mention the name, but if they make a hard landing they make a sound like "Boeing!!" Anyway, in Washington, if you don't join the union, you still have to pay the same amount as if you were paying dues. Let me repeat that:You still have to pay the dues, it just goes to some sort of "Association Fund", and if you change positions, get a promotion, lateral transfer, whatever, you have to go through the same exercise all over again.

Good Luck , I hope you are successful.

Blessings,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And that is because you still get the good pay, and the other benefits. Kinda like you pay taxes, even if you stay home all the time.

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At a time when I was flat broke, I finally landed a job.....a union job. When they took the union dues out of my pay, I almost cried. I was also giving the "union" idea some second thoughts....wondering how I could get out of the union.

When I look back, though, that was one of the best jobs I ever had. I stayed there 15 years. The union was always fighting for more pay and benefits. If anybody ever gave you any trouble, the union was there to protect you. No one was allowed to dump extra work on you. You only did work that was within your own category. There was also an element of job security. Your boss couldn't fire you because he wanted to hire his girlfriend in your place, etc.

I had a better paying job than any of my friends, even ones that came out of upscale universities, and it was a union job. At one point, I was asked to upgrade into a management position, but weighed the facts, and stayed in the union job. The union people had regular hours and great pay. whereas management was called upon at odd hours and could be easily fired.

Just my own thoughts...I think you should count your blessings. Union jobs are not easy to find.

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Hey Bear...clarify something for me... are you simply objecting to PAYING the union dues, or are you objecting to membership in the union?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am objecting to be associated with the union, due to its behavior. This union is not presently working in the interests of the line staff level employee. It is tyrannical, and tells workers what their best interests are. I am not anti-union. I am deeply committed to individual liberty and fundamental human rights. I am agreeable to pay non-association fees to charity.

I was a member of the offensive union. And then they pulled some shennanigans to get union security, but denied non-members due process to vote on the new contract that had a union security clause. In August last year, they told non-members only members could vote. A couple weeks before the ratification vote in September last year, the union conceded to the state that all bargaining unit employees could vote. No communication occurred from the union to non-members of the bargaining unit of the change of eligibility to vote. I could go on and on, but basically, the union is demonstrating values seriously inconsistent with how I am. So I simply do not feel that I would be doing the right thing by maintaining association with the union. Union security requirements for employees that have been there for decades is a dramatic change in working conditions, a change over which those employees had no voice.

:) Cheryl

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Hey Bear...clarify something for me... are you simply objecting to PAYING the union dues, or are you objecting to membership in the union?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am objecting to be associated with the union, due to its behavior. This union is not presently working in the interests of the line staff level employee. It is tyrannical, and tells workers what their best interests are. I am not anti-union. I am deeply committed to individual liberty and fundamental human rights. I am agreeable to pay non-association fees to charity.

I was a member of the offensive union. And then they pulled some shennanigans to get union security, but denied non-members due process to vote on the new contract that had a union security clause. In August last year, they told non-members only members could vote. A couple weeks before the ratification vote in September last year, the union conceded to the state that all bargaining unit employees could vote. No communication occurred from the union to non-members of the bargaining unit of the change of eligibility to vote. I could go on and on, but basically, the union is demonstrating values seriously inconsistent with how I am. So I simply do not feel that I would be doing the right thing by maintaining association with the union. Union security requirements for employees that have been there for decades is a dramatic change in working conditions, a change over which those employees had no voice.

:) Cheryl

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

how big is the union. could you run for office'?

your biggest problem when presenting the case will be that you are not opposed to unions as an ethical stance, just this one. I suspect that might cause your case to fail.

But, do what is right..

good luck.

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Hey Bear...clarify something for me... are you simply objecting to PAYING the union dues, or are you objecting to membership in the union?

I am objecting to be associated with the union, due to its behavior.

Then your objection on religious grounds is not going to fly, and since membership in the union is required by statutes you'd best seek other employment. Of course, don't listen to us for anything other than moral support, if you get any, consult your own legal advisor.

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