Dan56

Sometimes its not that 'I don't know', but rather my inability to articulate what I think. We only know from what we read, and I interpret Ezekiel 28:15 as Satan being the originator of evil and sin; "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness (evil) was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned". Did Satan's desire to rebel against God come from God? Then as Romans 9 stipulates; "As by one man sin entered into the world". Evil for us is a deviation from God's will, and it originated from free-choice, or possibly in California? What would evil be if God created it? Adultery? Murder? Rebellion against God? Those are not things, they are behaviors freely chosen by us. Anything we do against God comes from us, not God. God did create and brought evil (bad) things upon people in the OT, but the distinction is that God uses 'evil' in the same sense that a parent spanks a misbehaving child, its a form of correction used to bring about ultimate good. The Bible insists that God always does right, he cannot sin or commit iniquity. Where it says that God repented of the evil that he sought to bring on his people (Exodus 32:14), I believe it means that God simply with-held his wrath. God did bring evil upon those who broke his covenant (Jeremiah 11:10). God also repents from his negative judgment (evil) IF we repent from sin, and God repents of his positive judgment (blessings) when we turn to sin and fail to repent (Jeremiah 18: 5-10). "God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world; he that believeth not hath been judged already, and this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil"(John 3:18-19).

Evil is not a creation, it's a behavior of disobedience and rebellion against the laws of God. Evil is actually the absence of doing good as darkness is the absence of light. Darkness is not a creation, it is merely the absence of light, likewise the absence of good is evil. (James 1:13-17, Job 34:10, Psalm 5:4, James 3:14-17) The Tree of Knowledge metaphorically represented Satan, he is the originator of sin and evil. What is evil/sin? It is everything outside of the righteousness of God. What evil existed prior to Satan? He was the first to turn away from God, so the source originated with Satan . Evil has malice and forethought, sin comes from inside us. God hates sin, he allows it, but did not create it imo (James 1:13-17, Job 34:10, Psalm 5:4, James 3:14-17). This makes sense to me. Evil is not a thing God created, but an action that we decide to take.

I know that there is no single spokesman for liberal Christians. Progressive Christianity can't be specifically defined because its not based on any fundamental truth, but is instead rooted in individual perspective and philosophy. My comment was tongue & cheek, I didn't claim to change anyone's way of thinking, and stating that the score favored myself was just a bit of sarcastic humor. Yes, but what tree? The fruit reflective of the Tree of Life (Christ)? Or the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Satan)?

I would say, with an aura of arrogance and delusions of supremacy, that the score strongly favors Dan54. Was any progress made? No, liberal Christianity still rejects the divinity of Christ.

I agree that there are different or opposite sides to God. As you pointed out, God has demonstrated his blessings as well as his wrath. When you previously wrote that there is an unconscious side to God, I thought you meant that there are things he doesn't know, or parts of creation he doesn't control. I suppose that those things which have not been created yet, could be labeled as unknown until the creative process is completed and creation is established. Its difficult to fathom how the mind of God works, its probably beyond our comprehension.

I agree with a large part of what you wrote. I don't personally subscribe to the theory of Anima/Animus, at least not to where its applicable to God. I don't accept that there is an unconscious side of God or creation, whereby God was/is unknowing. Since God is omnipotent (Revelation 19:6), nothing can be unknown to him, otherwise he would not be God.

I don't think you read those verses with much understanding? God is not indifferent in his judgments towards his people, he repents from harsh judgment when we repent from evil, and God repents from issuing blessings upon those who refuse to turn from evil. "If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them" (Jeremiah 18:8&10).

Jesus demonstrated that he had absolute power over evil, and he knew no sin. "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all"(1 John 1:5). God is all-knowing, but there is no evil in him. "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee"(Psalms 5:4). God did not create evil itself, what he created was the potential for evil, because It exist within the freedom of choice. So evil emanates from within ourselves, it was not created by God. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord"(Isaiah 55:8).

If God preempted, it would have interfered with free-will. Intervening to prevent sin/evil eliminates choice. This would defeat the purpose of testing us. If your intent was to actually burn down the Westboro Baptist Church, I think God would extend your life long enough to get the job done Evil is essentially disobedience to God, and its a voluntary choice. Revelation 12:4 says that Satan rebelled and a third of God's children sided with him. So evil (disobedience) began before the creation of mankind, it originated with angels who had knowledge of both good and evil, along with free-choice.

Evil is allowed so that we have a choice, the test is between good and evil. But even where only good exist, I suppose there are still choices, so in that sense, free will continues. For the here & now though, evil is a necessary component. Sure, God could destroy the bad, but since we've all been infected with sin, what would be left? I believe God wants to purify the bad blood, not destroy it. Technically yes, but my point was that this is not the way God operates. I guess its important for a person to know why they're being condemned or rewarded, otherwise it would be like correcting or rewarding a kid for something they haven't done. What kind of judge does that? Once again, you have brilliantly crystallized my thoughts. I basically agree, God allowed into the program what is allowed in, but the worms (sins) are activated by our own desire, not Gods. If sin was forced into the program, why wasn't Jesus infected? Well, it works for me... The Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the bible. I generally prefer the KJV translation, but in this particular verse, the translation to English is more accurately relayed in other versions. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV, and translated as "disaster" in the NIV. Jesus reiterated what was written in Leviticus 19:18, but he expounded upon the law in Matthew 5:44 by adding "Love your enemies". I don't believe too many religions follow that notion? I'm convinced that belief comes from understanding the word and by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Its hard to believe what we don't understand and even more difficult to accept what we aren't convinced is right. If Jesus was unbelievable, we wouldn't be expected to believe him.

The choice of evil will be eliminated because evil will be destroyed. As R.R.'s ice cream analogy points out, there's always choice. I believe souls need to be tested because of judgment. A person can't be condemned or rewarded based on what we would have done. The test are for our sakes, we can't reap what we sow if we have no works. It was foreknown by God that Jesus would not fail, but Christ still experienced the flesh in order for all to witness that God's Will was done and his work finished. The bible is no help when its not believed. Everyone comes up short and falls to sin, its innate in all of us, but I wouldn't define a Christian as being rebellious just because everything is not clear to them or they have difficulty understanding. For me, rebelling is when you do understand and believe the bible but still refuse to accept it. I've always tried to accept what make sense and work on understanding what doesn't.

Good and evil are necessary to test souls, but evil is temporary and will soon cease to exist. Your correct in the sense that God being omniscient, had to have foreknown that we would all fail. But everything God created was good, he did not create us to fail. In giving human beings a choice, God gave us the option to sin, and we all took it. So the responsibility is ours, because we each freely chose to sin. Did God know everyone would fail the test, be disobedient, and come up short? Yes. Does God's foreknowledge of our actions make creating us pointless? No, because before the beginning, God planned to defeat sin himself. So because we have victory over sin through Christ, God did not create failures. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God." (Romans 3:23-25)

Sounds logical... Without evil, there is only good, and with only good, there is no choice. Nothing exist unless God allows it. I don't think God created evil, but that he allows it. If God had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will. If we could not freely choose, our behavior would be designed and programmed, making us robots of instinctual behaviour. For God to create human beings that are capable of sustaining a personal relationship with him, they must be beings that are capable of freely loving him and following his will without coercion.

How exactly does foreknowledge of an action preclude free will? God does not need to be in the dark in order for us to exercise free-will. God knowing the future of what someone will do, does not mean God set the future of what that person will do? There is no causal relationship between foreknowledge and events which are foreknown. Because God knows our decisions before we make them, does not mean that our decisions were made by God. Without free will there can be no judgment. Whether or not God has foreknowledge of our actions is irrelevant. Its my opinion that we freely choose evil (sin). Freewill has everything to do with evil, evil could not exist without free-will. I agree that God sets the parameters, he allows what he allows and is in complete control.

Evil exists because we have free will, and we are allowed to choose evil instead of the good will of his pleasure. Gods foreknowledge does not negate our free-will. God's foreknowledge is affirmed by what we ultimately decide to do, not vice versa. Nothing complicated about it.. We weren't created to fail, God simply allows us the choice to fail. I noticed that too, its amazing how a topic strays, but its all about beliefs I guess.

No, I don't believe God is limited at all, but that God has complete foreknowledge. But I also believe that no one's future is set in stone as long as God intervenes or intercedes. God is in complete control and has complete knowledge of everything. God is not a God of mistakes that learns as he goes, his omniscience means that God knows all that has been, all that is, and all that will be. As for Jeremiah, God foreordains some people of whom he foreknew. I believe God knows all souls from eternity past, and many of them are called and chosen (predestined) for a specific purpose. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:29,30). "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" (Ephesians 1:4,5).

Ananias and Sapphira were not killed for holding back some of the money, but for lying to God. It doesn't say why the couple wasn't offered an opportunity to repent and pay the full amount, but I suspect they were put to death for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? What God foreknows depends on what we will ultimately do. What we will ultimately do is not dependent on what is foreknown by God. Don't confuse 'God knowing' with 'God controlling'. What God knows depends on what we will choose, not the other way around. Because God is omnipotent, he has the will and the power to change things. If the future known by God was set in stone, God could not make any new decisions or make any changes. We don't have a God who experiences nothing, but a living God who participates in the creation of our character and helps us grow. Omniscience means that God acts and intervenes in history to accomplish his ends. "Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands" (Deuteronomy 8:2). God told Abraham: “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me” (Genesis 22:12). It would appear from the verses above, that omniscience is nonexistent because not all things are knowable? As long as we have free will, God can work within each of us to change our future, he did this with Paul on the road to Damascus. God might have foreknowledge that if I were hungry, I'd eat a meal, but God being all-powerful, could elect to make me sick to my stomach and cause me to skip the meal, thereby changing what was previously foreknown.

I suppose your right.. We have free will, but in the end, God is a dictator and only his Will will be done. 'Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose'

Well, free-will is free-will, what God knows is irrelevant to the person who's given free choice. If you had foreknowledge that another person would decide to attend a football game, how does this interfere with their decision to go see the event? If you could foresee the final score of the game, does this negate the freedom of choice of those who decided to view or participate in the game? God did not repent because he was wrong, what repented God is that people were wrong. God did not have a desire to be different, because he is righteous and unchanging, but it was God's desire that man would be different. Imagine if you had made/created a perfect yard and people threw trash all over your lawn. Would you repent that you had a nice yard or regret the people who ruined it? God is perfect, so the fact that he was repentive about the ways humans behave themselves, is evidence that he allows free-will despite the grief it causes him. My point was not to lecture you about how sins let God down, but to illustrate that the works of man are not the works of God. Due to free-will, our unrighteous acts are no reflection on a righteous God. No, its the freedom to do what we choose regardless of God knowing (just my opinion of course).

I thought I did... Just because God knows and foresees all things, does not mean he can't regret certain things. God saw the wickedness and continuous evil committed by his children and it "grieved him at his heart". When we repent, we remove the wrong from our life... When God repented, he removed the wrong from the face of the earth. God gave man free-will, and regrettably, man chose poorly. God can see the future, prophecy proves this. And as you quoted, Jesus said that all things are possible with God. But just because God knows the future, why would this mean that free-will can't co-exist? Your choices are your choices, the fact that God has foreknowledge of what you'll choose, does not infringe upon your freedom of choice. God's omniscience does not affect another's free will. Your choices are not predetermined, and they aren't the result of a pre-written scrip. God doesn't twist your arm or program your mind in order to make you comply with a future that He has mapped-out. God does intervene from time to time, but generally, seeing the future does not eliminate or alter our freedom of choice.

So, the folks at Tektonics seem to have a problem with what the bible says? The prophecy didn't materialize because the "Many Nations" is an unnatural reading ? The bottom line is that the prophecy said that Many nations would come against Tyre (Ezekiel 26:3), and that's exactly what happened. The city of Tyre consisted of a mainland metropolis and a small Island that stood about half a mile offshore, both were utterly destroyed just as was foretold in the prophecy. The Destruction of Tyre Bible prophecies fulfilled by Phoenicia's city of Tyre EZEKIEL CHAPTER 26 - TYRE - FULFILLED PROPHECY

Nebuchadnezzar did destroy the mainland city of Tyre just as prophesied. The prophecy stated in Ezekiel 26:3, that God would cause MANY nations to come against Tyre. Then it singled out Nebuchadnezzar in verse 7, as one of those nations, indicating the specific role he would play. In verse twelve, it returns to talking about "they" (the nations). Nebuchadnezzar’s role was never meant to include the destruction of the island fortress. It says that by reason of the abundance of his horses, dust would cover Tyre, but since the island city was more than a half mile from shore, this was obviously not referring to it, but rather that his army would trod down the streets of the mainland city. . Ezekiel 29 does not say the prophecy failed, it just says that Nebuchadnezzar and his army got no wages from Tyre. Your reading what you want to hear instead of carefully reading what it actually says. There's more to this prophecy, as Ezekiel 28 indicates, the prince of Tyre is a type of Satan himself. The reason it repented God that he had made man on the earth was stated in the previous verse, he saw the wickedness and only continuous evil. Did God create the evil and wickedness? No, so how could God have been wrong or in error? God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9), and He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Therefore, God regretted the continuous evil works of mankind. God doesn't see the past, the present, or the future, but with the absence of time, He sees everything as it is happening. The paradox of omniscience and free will are not nonsensical because of God's omnipotence. History is not history until God makes it so (Lamentations 3:37). God, being all-knowing, knows that we are all dead to sin, but because God is all-powerful, we are all not dead to sin. The power of prayer is not void, because His Will is done, not ours. Is God's omniscience applicable to himself, or is His omniscience about us in accordance to his omnipotence in dealing with each of us? I believe that as long as God intervenes, our fate is not necessarily predetermined. We read about God's emotions, he gets angry, he relents, he regrets, he is grieved, etc. If God changes his mind due to His patience, mercy, or grace, then what would have been, will be no more (Exodus 32:14).

It is not possible for a non-believer to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must reside within a believer before they can blaspheme against it. When the Holy Spirit dwells within you, you have no delusions of the Truth. This is why it is unforgivable to blaspheme against it, because you would in affect be consciously rejecting what has been made known to you. No, I'm relatively positive that your not more secure in your self-knowledge than God is in his all-knowledge. God doesn't need self-esteem, he is that he is, while we are that we're not. More loving? When you've sacrificed your own life so that others might live, then you might have a fraction of the love that God has shown towards you. More tolerant? What have you had to tolerate besides me? .What we have is your opinion, and your opinion does not prove prophesies failed or that the bible is a collection of myths. Some Christians are idiots... Jesus said that no man knew the hour of his return, so any Christian who professes to know, is either biblically illiterate or a flat-out liar.

And there's your clarification, "by the law of Moses". Though we were once condemned by the law, we are now justified in Christ. But how can we be justified by Christ if we blasphemy his Holy Spirit. Its logical that this sin can't be forgiven. We have a lot of factual details and most every important event. Imagine the volume of books that would be necessary to cover 4000 years of history, or even a day by day journal of the 33 years of Jesus. I believe we were given all we need to understand the plan of God and what he desires of us.