Dan56

Yes, I left and won't post in this section again... I honestly didn't notice the "no religion" category attached to this section, or I wouldn't have posted in the first place. I generally don't check or browse the forum sections, I just respond to Notifications or recent Activity. So I accidentally chimed into the Topic "Do They Really Believe That?" without observing the "no religion" specification. I'll be more careful to observe those type of clarifications in the future. Sorry to have rained on your parade It does seem a bit strange that a 'no religion' disclaimer is attached to a thread about believing religion though? But I reckon it was meant to be exclusively intended and restricted for those who enjoy trashing religion?

That's true, I do accept by faith and with some decent documentation that the bible does consist of accurate copies of the original manuscripts. I don't believe they are someone else's interpretation though. The real proof to me is in the pudding, what's written makes sense and relay's the authentic truth.. I'm fully cognizant that you don't share that view, and wouldn't believe it even if the original manuscripts existed. Call me gullible, but I do accept the authorship and take their word for it.. Just as I'm stupid enough to believe that you wrote the comment above, and even trust that its not someone else's interpretation of what you wrote.

Pete is not engaging like a human being. He is an automatic atheist machine. Thought is not being engaged.. blah blah Not everyone is going to share your opinion, sorry if I ruffled your feathers. Then don't.... No one is twisting your arm. Just skip over my post. Just ignore my post if they bother you, you don't need a button to do that.. No reason to cry like babies about it.

Pattern of gene resemblances proves creationism false? Please.... One common designer using the same pattern to create various kinds of life is more likely and very logical.

The difference is that your silver tablets are not visible and thereby unknown ( I can't show anyone).. If you had found a bible in the woods, you could show everyone (the Gospel must be published among all nations) See how smart that sounds? You don't have an argument... Remember, you believe nothing and don't care.

That's pretty much what I've said 100 times. And I agree, people who believe in nothing aren't complicated at all. All you can do is attack what others believe because you have no answers of your own. You can't prove false what you demand I prove is true. You have no answers to life's most challenging questions, while my belief answers all of those questions. That's why your always saying "I'm done".. And your right, you have nothing further to offer, your science is a dead-end street, and you don't care because you have nothing to care about. You think what i believe is hideous, but what you believe is an enigma.. "I don't care" is the end argument of a frustrated person. You know, I've also listened to many of your boring arguments too, and they have given me more faith than ever. I find your views empty in substance and void of meaning. I've never seen people who know absolutely nothing, while simultaneously proclaiming to be absolutely right, i.e; you have no idea how you got here, but your certain you weren't created? I have an argument, you don't, and that's what your really tired of.. No one made you Agnostic, an atheist, or whatever you'll be tomorrow, its always an individual choice. What's sad is that your incapable of believing in anything, your only faith is in yourself, and I'm guessing that's got to be a pretty depressing state of mind? Neither of you need to respond. There's really nothing to debate, I simply state what I believe and you get upset. Its puzzling why that is so?

Yes I believe it, but you go on believing that your distant ancestors magically evolved from a pile of rocks, it seems just as credulous & gullible for anyone to believe that unfounded and unproven load of crap. As Apatheist, you've accepted that you know nothing, so of course you have nothing to argue about. No hope, no purpose, no meaning, no knowledge, no destiny, no answers, or even the slightest desire to know anything. Kind of a sad way to go through life, I can't imagine your content with it. That's the sad part. The bible instructs people to search (study) the scriptures, if you earnestly knock, it will be opened-up to you. But knocking requires a little effort. No, God does not have dementia, people are just too lazy to try and understand, or they just don't care. I could explain the 'days' in Genesis 1&2, but it would likely be a waste of time. It makes sense to me because I understand it, but a person has got to have a serious desire to comprehend it.

Dismissing something as an impossibility because you can't find observable evidence to prove it is biased. But I understand that science & spirituality don't mix. "The basis of Creationism is a hypothesis which, because of its supernatural nature, cannot be disproved at all. It is an unrefutable hypothesis. The supernatural explanation cannot be tested. This also places Creationism outside of science, as science is based on testable hypotheses". Yes, but the difference is that Man did not become a living soul until God breathed life into him (Genesis 2:7). That's what science has no answer for, and science cannot replicate. No, I'm not making it up, I just interpret it differently than most Christian novice. The bible doesn't say how old the earth is. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth,". It doesn't say when the beginning was, and note that verse one ends with a period, not a comma. Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form and void" "Was" is the wrong English word here, there is no 'was' in Hebrew. The Massorah renders it "hayah" (Strong's Concordance ref #1961). Hayah means; "to become or came to pass". So verse 2 should read that "The earth became void and without form". So millions or billions of years could have passed between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis. Some believe (myself included) that there are 3 earth ages. The first age is past, we are in the second age, and the third is yet to come. God completely annihilated and destroyed the first earth age, dinosaurs and all after Satan's rebellion (2 Peter 3:5-7 and Jeremiah 4:19-28). Note that in Genesis 1:28, God told them to "Replenish the earth", suggesting that it was inhabited before. So imo, God did not create the world void and empty, it became that way after the katabole. Then God formed it to be inhabited by mankind (Isaiah 45:18), but only after Satan got 1/3 of the angels to rebel in that first earth age (Rev 12) Many Christians don't accept this interpretation, but the time gap between the first and second verses in Genesis answers a lot of questions and makes sense to me... jmo

The professor had a very closed mind in my opinion. He refused to hear common sense. Creationism could be the real answer, the problem is that science can't study a spiritual being. As was stated, common ancestry could also equate to common design. Your right, science doesn't know, but its also not interested in real answers. You believe that you descended from rocks and you think I'd be an interesting psychiatric study? Wow! Faith is biblical, its not wrapped-up in culture. I agree that science looks at whats visible, that's precisely why they have no answers to the origin of life, and they never will. I've stated many times that I don't believe in the young earth theory myself, nor does the bible date the age of the earth. I believe Genesis is a description of re-establishing an earth that existed +millions of year before. That's the gap between verse 1 & 2.

That's was a good debate, Kent Hovind clearly humiliated the young professor Dave and articulately explained everything that I've been trying to pound through your heads forever. The good professor thinks we all came from rocks, but admitted that he's absolutely clueless as to how that first living cell magically came to life.. But it certainly couldn't have been Intelligent Design because you all have concluded that without evidence, creationism is garbage..

These are the type of responses that generally come from someone who's stumped.. No answers, just criticism. But that's okay, I understand that its impossible to prove something that's true to be false.

Well, with all the scientific advancements over thousands of years, what's more telling to me is that nothing in that bronze age book of 'nonsense' can or has been proven false. Holding to a position that creationism is false while having no alternative answer for all that exist is not an attempt to reason with anyone. Its saying that; 'I know nothing, but what you've concluded is false'. And you tout it as though you had evidence that creationism is false.. Its impossible to reason with that! Your essentially stating something as fact with no evidence to support it. Its good that you know what stars are, now lets move on to what purpose they serve the earth? Here's a clue; "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years" (Genesis 1:14).

An atheist is not convinced by anything nonphysical, if they can't perceive of it, they won't accept it. But God is not an intellectual quest, He is not just recognized because we can rationalize His existence. So the reality of nonbelievers ends with miracles, what they can't fathom happening, makes God unreal to them. Ultimately, Atheists have neither evidence nor proof that God does not exist. I personally think that deep down everyone knows that God exists, some have just trusted science and have convinced themselves otherwise. Christians roll the other way, we are convinced God exist and have made a choice of faith. Some are certain, so positive that they would give their life for Christ sake. Others lean towards Christ, but waver, doubts weigh in, kind of like when Peter began to sink when walking on water. Whats the truth, whats a lie? Can you name something Jesus did that was a lie or unrighteous? Christians don't believe God was a liar from the beginning, Atheist do. Faith is just trust, if something is true, its easy to trust. 'Nothing so trivial as facts?' My point has been that you have no facts and no definitive answers to how it all began. Your reality is limited to what you can see and test, all else is unknown. Genesis speaks to what people could understand (all ages of time). Stars are seen as lights, their purpose is what's stated (Genesis 1:14). You seem to demand a step by step instructional manual to explain how it was done?

There are only two possible solutions to the riddle of origins. Either Someone made the world, or the world made itself. Something originating from nothing is an unexplained concept that's hard to swallow. Do you really expect me to take that riddle on faith? If something coming from nothing were true, its truth would have been verified by now. You see, when the shoe is on the other foot, your reality has fewer answers than mine. So where did this wave of energy come from? Could God have been the cause? The Big Bang theory is not a theory of the creation of the universe, it just traces the evolution of the cosmos to its earliest moments. The moon (reflective light) is still light, Genesis doesn't claim it produces light. God told Abraham that the stars in the heavens could not be numbered (Genesis 15:5), so its in agreement with you regarding the expanse of space., but you claim Genesis is nonsense? Hubert Spencer gave the world five scientific principles by which man may study the unknown. They are time, force, energy, space, and matter.. Moses, by inspiration, gave us those scientific principles in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning" --time; "God"-- force; "created" -- energy; "the heavens" --space; "and the earth" -- matter.

I'm really just stating why it makes sense to me, and of course its received by faith.. What 's puzzling is that you all rule out creation, but have no better answers of how everything magically came into being. You just can't scientifically prove a Supreme Spiritual Being via physical measurements, so science will always be a dead end street on that topic. Perhaps 'belief' has always been a remedy for the unknown, science says that from nothing, nothing comes, and yet here we all are? And I'll repeat, "When you can't prove an answer wrong, its ignorant to refer to it as crap.." You've reached a conclusion based on absolutely nothing. When you have some facts, I'll rethink your reality. In the meantime, consider that there may be more to life than what you can see, touch, and hear. I suspect that if there were absolutely no miracles mentioned in the bible, you might actually find it more credible? But probably not. The facts and reality you mention have always been observable, so of course throwing out all current science books would eventually be replaced with new books stating the same facts. Its confusing history with observable facts. Yes its true that trees grow and trees have leaves. Facts. Reality. These things can be confirmed. But the recorded past must be taken with a degree of faith. Did Christ live, die, and resurrect? If so, I believe the bible would be unchanged if history could repeat itself. Unfortunately, that's not an experiment that can ever be conducted. With the inability to go back in time, the past is not repeatable, but I suspect if we could, we would still know WW2 happened, Lincoln was our 16th president, and Christ was crucified. But I'll agree that fabricated myths would likely dissipate or radically change.

Anyone who believes the bible would disagree, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8). If it were an uninspired book of fables, you would be correct. No answer is good for nothing.. When you can't prove an answer wrong, its ignorant to refer to it as crap.. Yes, back to what I believe... And yes, back to your believing nothing.. Being content living in a void hole of nothingness doesn't appeal to most folks,

So your saying that if we throw out the book that tells us all about God, we would have no information about God? Without the book that gives us a working definition of God and the details that let us discern God, we would know nothing about God... I agree...What amazes me is that the same could be said for all the science books.. Y'all don't know how you got here, but your convince you weren't created, with absolutely no facts to back it up. You have faith too, but its faith in what you think. The problem with that is that you don't know anything. People of faith simply believe that your consciousness (spiritual energy) was transferred into your body at birth, death just sends it home. Its not so far fetched. Thoughts are energy and energy never dies. Even science recognizes that; "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.” (Einstein). Albert was half right, energy could not self-create, everything has a cause... And that's where science hits a dead end street and faith begins. God created our energy, our spirit is the intellect of our soul, and that spiritual energy continues to exist after our physical body dies. Your body is energy, your mind is energy, your soul is energy, your consciousness is pure energy, and even an idea or thought is a packet of energy. The only question is; Is this energy that encapsulates your physical body & brain transformed or transferred after death? I believe consciousness is a non-physical form of energy to begin with, so upon physical death, it simply returns from where it came. Only the source of energy (Creator) can permanently destroy energy (souls)... Wait a minute, I guess that makes Einstein 100% wrong

Whether or not God knew what A&E would do is irrelevant, they had free will and chose to be disobedient. I understand what your saying, but the decision was ultimately A&E's choice. I don't think the environment made them do it, nor do I think we are genetically predisposed to sin. We were created with the intellectual capacity to override our natural inclinations and environment. For something to be a science, it has to be at its core , based on repeated empirical study. Logic is not based on this. Logic is rational, not empirical. Reality is subjective & logic won't cover every thing unless you know everything, which is kind of paradox in itself.

Of course, I'd disagree with both of you... There's a variety of logic, something that makes sense can be logical. Faith establishes the principles from which we reason logically. The Bible teaches that God is logical. The Bible says that God does not contradict Himself, and when God declares that something is true, then it is really true. The notion of “faith versus reason” is an example of a false dichotomy. Faith is not antagonistic to reason. On the contrary, biblical faith and reason go well together. The problem lies in the fact that many people have a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not a belief in the absurd, nor is it a belief in something simply for the sake of believing it. Rather, faith is having confidence in something that we have not perceived with the senses.

I believe the bible is logical, but in a spiritual way that escapes nonbelievers.. And I've never claimed it was anything but my belief.. You guys simply make some ridiculous comments, such as 'The bible claims the earth is flat, because it describes it as having four corners'. So I just explain that the 4 corners of the earth is a reference to the 4 directions , north, east, west, & south. Skeptics always take a half verse and run with it, while overlooking the context of what's actually being said. Your analogy falls apart because God does not pull the trigger.. And no, I blame the person who pulls the trigger, not the bullet. Just because God set the particular circumstances of the human condition, doesn't make him responsible for human decisions. God told Adam that if he ate of the tree, he would surely die. God did not put a gun to his head and make him eat, let alone pull the trigger. God hasn't spiritually killed anyone yet, and its not His desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). As I answered Pete, I believe the bible is logical, clear, and real... You obviously don't think the same, and its not my mission to change that. No one here is subordinate to anyone, I believe you've mistaken me defending my faith as an effort to make others believe as I do.. I simply correct inaccurate depictions of bible passages, not to sway others, but to correct some unfounded and exaggerated assumptions. Your always free to correct my error, so the same courtesy should be extended to me. And no, you don't need an excuse not to believe anymore than I need an excuse to believe.

Yes, I understand that.. I never said God doesn't answer prayers, I said He doesn't respond to prayers outside of His Will.. Experience has taught me that.. That's why I suggested trying to pray for materialistic gains, I think you'll find that my theory is correct. His works are perfect, its our works that corrupted what was good. We live in a world of sin now (post Genesis 2), so its an imperfect, cruel, and evil world. We chose the knowledge of evil and we can't obtain that knowledge by living in a good world, so its not God's works that are in question. No insult intended, but you must admit that your not exactly open to biblical thinking. You pretty much misconstrue everything the bible teaches as an excuse not to believe it. Surface reading or skimming over the content does not allow a person to understand, and you can't believe what you don't understand. E.g; God kills = God is bad.. I pray for $$ and God no give = God is bad.. I have headache and God no fix = God is bad... That's pretty much the depth you guys get from the Word of God .. That's why I said that if I perceived it all like you do, I'd be an Atheist too.

Well, it all makes perfect sense to me. If God wanted to destroy us, He would have already done it. Instead, He provided a way to save everyone. God will not only forgive, He'll erase every offense from the record. Can't ask for anymore than that. You only choose to see the negative, while completely dismissing the positive. God will only get rid of those who reject Him and rebel against Him, can't really blame Him for that, you'd probably do the same thing? I don't persuade (obviously), I simply state what I believe. Its the truth to me, its what the bible says, that's why I include all those verses. I understand that your blind to the Truth and closed minded, but I still feel compelled to correct those who may have read the book, but absorbed none of it. As I've stated, If I interpreted things like you guys do, I wouldn't believe anything either.

Its my interpretation and my opinion.. If you think I'm wrong and believe God answers all prayers, pray for $1 million or a new car and let me know how that's works out for ya . If you believe God protects Christians, why are they victims of crime & violence? Why didn't God prevent prophets & apostles from being killed? If you think God knows everything people would do, why bother asking them to believe in him? If God already knows who will be saved, why not suspend the game and go straight to judgement? My answers are logical, sorry if your having trouble grasping the answers. Maybe you've just been too subjected to TV preachers who never cover more than once bible verse at a time?

Sometimes belief and faith are all you have to make decisions, science doesn't answer everything, especially anything of a nonphysical nature, like your consciousness. Granted, no answers to some basic unanswered questions in life call for a degree of speculation, or faith if you will. Prayer and protection are 2 different issues.. I believe God answers prayers when a request of a spiritual nature are rendered (in Jesus name & purpose). But if a drunk driver is headed down the street, he is as likely to run into a believer as well as an unbeliever. God may only intervene if He has a yet unfulfilled special purpose for a person. Life is a roll of the dice for everyone. When it comes to affairs of the heart, I don't believe God is omniscient. And as I've said in the past, omnipotence can alter omniscience. God is both.

I jokingly introduced the crazy woman's suicidal actions as a ridiculous demonstration of faith. Its not much different than crazed Muslims crashing planes for 7 virgins. The Christian God does not protect Christians, 'It rains on the just and unjust alike'. The Penn woman was trying to prove God by invoking His protection, that's not trust, its tempting God. What's over the line is that 2 cars were wrecked and people got hurt, so I don't believe God views that as real faith. Good point... The difference is that God requested the sacrifice of Issac as a test of faith, while the woman tempted God by an unsolicited act of suicide. I'm surprised that Atheist often have more profound questions than believers