Dan56

If Jesus disapproved of self-defense, why did he allow Peter to have a sword in the first place? Turning the other cheek simply meant to walk away from trouble when possible, Jesus was not teaching masochism or suggesting that we invite others to beat the heck out us. But I guess we all interpret things differently.

Jesus said; "Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (Luke 24:46-47), "Unless you repent, you will likewise perish" (Luke 13:3), "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15), "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Mark 2:17). I'm surprised you didn't know that?

There's nothing non-Christian about hating an act of inhumane violence. "Hate the evil, and love the good" (Amos 5:15). God's forgiveness does not extend to the unrepentant or those who don't ask to be forgiven. My point was that when you have mercy on, or forgive the unrepentant, your pretty much endorsing and promoting their sin, and God hates sin. Jesus didn't have much mercy when he chased the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip. And Jesus asked Peter to put away his sword because Peter was interfering with Christ mission. This is just my more conservative view, and I know it flies against the view that many Christians have of an all-forgiving lovey-dovey God. Vengeance is God's, and its His promise that unrepentant people who commit these brutal crimes will become the object of His wrath, and I take solace in that.

‘With or without religion, good people will do good, and evil people will do evil, but for good people to do evil, that takes religion’ (Steven Weinberg)

I read it differently I guess? It sounded like a wish that a magistrate (judge) would be more merciful towards the perpetrators than they were towards the colt? I interpreted "merciful" as letting bygones be bygones, a forgive and forget scenario. To me, being held accountable is being punished for your crime, while hoping a judge is merciful is tantamount to wishing that the offenders get off easy. That's why I chimed-in with a "Count me out". Sorry if I misread the meaning of your post, it just makes me angry to hear of severe animal abuse, and I don't care about the "peace of mind" of those who committed this dastardly deed. In fact, I'd prefer they'd have a troubled mind about what they did.

Count me out.... Mercy, love, and prayers for people who commit such horrific acts will simply promote more of the same. Pacifism doesn't deter crime, it promotes, encourages, and enables it.

Those all seem like easy rules to obey.... For ladies, don't grab a guys nuts during a fight, and if your Dad is a priest, don't be a whore. Surely you can understand why castrating an innocent guy is immoral, and why it looks bad for a priest to have a fornicating tramp for a daughter? Accept your punishment when a judge sentences you, seek God and don't reject him, and don't work on Saturdays. Yes, its understandable why you might worry about God's morals, the nerve of that guy for giving everyone a day-off every week. We may think God’s laws in the Old Testament were cruel, but in reality these laws prevented many crimes. Strict punishment works as a great deterrent. Many have a difficult time reconciling God's love vs. God's righteousness, but God's love requires justice, so in order to maintain a degree of righteousness in the House of Israel, God judged their sin. JMO

Mosaic Law (ordinances) were instituted to govern and preserve God's people up to the coming of Messiah. God's methodology of controlling and punishing sin was by law, but we are no longer under the 613-622 points of the law, but under the dispensation of grace. So I wouldn't get hung-up on all the statutes that were never designed for you, but established to preserve a way to reconciliation. We are all condemned by law, but justified via our faith in Christ. David sought and received reconciliation because of this promise. I believe God's anger was against Israel for murdering people that they promised to leave alone. If you don't understand the punishment of sin as righteous, then perhaps you should question your own motivation for justifying sin. If your not a pacifist, why insist that God be one? JMO

Just send the bill to God.. Better yet, bill Obama, he gives money to everyone and you don't even need to be a victim of a disaster. Conjecture is an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof. I have plenty of conjecture The 2 books of Judges are notorious for lacking details. While no one can know exactly what prompted God's anger against Israel, we know that Israel and David did sin. Perhaps it was a culmination of transgressions? What's being missed is the lesson behind the story, which is that David repented, God relented, and the rest of Israel was spared. David bought the threshing floor from Araunah (Ornan), built an alter, and made a type of sacrifice that foreshadowed the ultimate sacrifice. I don't think it was any accident that God's judgement against Israel ended at the threshing floor.

I wouldn't describe God as aiding and abetting David and the devil into temptation. God allowed David to be tempted by Satan, just as he did Jesus. Satan does the tempting, not God. And God does warn us, He's made us aware of sin and even wrote 10 of them down. Consider the first sin, were A&E warned? So imo, God is not guilty of willfully neglecting to warn us. I was speculating, not attempting to justify God's action, He doesn't need anyone to justify anything He does. Why God chose to use David's sin as a catalyst to punish Israel is conjecture, but clearly David suffered the anguish of God's judgement against Israel. We simply know for certain that God was angry with Israel, He allowed the adversary to tempt David, who fell to pride and took the census. Both 2 Samuel 24:15 and 1 Chronicles 21:14 say that 70,000 men of Israel lost their lives. That's what we know for certain, but ultimately women and children may have also died.

My comment in red was an attempt at humor, thus the smiley face. When I wrote "I believe in Islam" I was kind of mimicking the way you believe in Christianity, i.e. You believe in Christianity, you just don't accept anything the bible says, don't believe Jesus is the Savior, and could never accept a tyrannical God like YHVH. But sarcasm aside, yes I'm aware of the violence committed by the OT God. The difference between us is that I accept God's righteous indignation against sin and agree with His judgements. But I certainly understand why pacifist would find God's wrath to be somewhat disturbing.

In Genesis 22:1, Most bible versions say "God tested Abraham". Even a KJV footnote references "tempt" as "prove". II Samuel 24:1 includes a footnote referencing 1 Chronicles 21:1 which says Satan incited David to do it. Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. So there you have it, God may test, try, and prove people, but He doesn't tempt them. Its Satan who tempts us, just like he did David, Job, Jesus, etc. Judges doesn't give specifics as to why God was angry with them. I speculated that it was because Saul committed a great crime against Gibeon, God told David; "It is because of Saul and his bloodthirsty house, because he killed the Gibeonites" (2 Samuel;21:1). Those 70,000 men likely followed King Saul when he massacred the Gibeonites, whom Israel had previously sworn not to harm. One could also speculate that Israel had recently rejected David in favor of Absalom, or that Israel had followed Bichri (2 Samuel 20:1). Whatever the reason, God was angry and rendered judgment against them, and taught David a little humility in the process. I personally trust that if God kills thousands, He had a righteous reason for doing so. I'm not sure how all this ties into; 'Who controls the weather?'

When I mentioned that I wasn't judging all Muslims, that was in regards to committing acts of terrorism. In regards to the religion itself, since I believe its wrong, I would obviously judge those who follow it to be in error. And yes, there are violent Christians as well, and I don't condone bombing abortion clinics, even though its an effort to defend the defenseless.

As I previously mentioned, I don't like the religion, I also don't believe the Quranor that Allah even exist, but that is my personal preference and not a criticism towards those that do follow Islam. Its no different than your and Fawzo's critique of the bible, your not condemning Christians, just disagreeing with what they believe. It's the radical Islamist who use the Koran to justify terrorism that I hate. The Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McViegh proclaimed himself a Christian, but my criticism of his actions are no reflection on other Christians. Hating what Judas did does not extend to Peter via association. Its the same with Muslims, some want Jihad and others are peaceful. I reckon there's good and bad people in every belief? My personal interpretation of "love your neighbor as yourself" is that Jesus was referring to your neighbor, a brother or sister of the same faith. But he extended it to "love your enemies and pray for them" (Matthew 5:44), which is one factor that differentiates Islam from Christianity. JMO

The sarcasm was directed at the religion. Given recent acts of terrorism (i.g. the British soldier hacked to death by Muslim extremist), I was associating Islamic extremism with violence. I didn't write that all Muslims were extremist, so I was not judging all Muslims. I do support a death penalty for first degree murder, but I'm not sure what killing someone for "spreading mischief in the land" means, nor do I know what killing someone for "just cause" entails? And where these verses say to not take a life which 'Allah has made sacred', I'm assuming that infidels (Christians and Jews) aren't lives that Allah considers sacred?

Pick-up the subject in verse 1, what was God's motivation?; "And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah" (2 Samuel 24:1) "Again" carries us back to the former tokens of His wrath in the three years of famine (2 Samuel 21:1..). God was still angry with a portion of Israel for killing the Gibeonites while under King Saul. For the people's sin David was left to act wrong, God permitted Satan to tempt David. But it was for the purpose of rendering judgement against Israel, it was those 70,000 that God was angry with. JMO

I wasn't judging all Muslims, but just pointing out the dogma that helps instigate the violent attacks. There are extremist in Christianity too, but the acts of violence that you specifically mentioned are prevalent to Islamic extremist. I'll admit that I don't like the religion, but am aware that most Muslims don't subscribe to murder. The Muslim population in London is one of the largest of all major European cities, so I'd anticipate some more emotionally upsetting months. I see a big difference in what Mohammed taught from what Christ taught, so my objective was to simply point it out.

Islamist murdered that soldier, Islamist murdered the 15 year old boy, and the 6 men who planned to plant the bomb were Islamic extremist. I'm sensing one particular type of dogma that's behind these evil killers, and its not those crazy Christian fundamentalist Consider the difference; "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" (Quran 8:12), verses; "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:44) Such a peaceful and loving religion;Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood (9:123)When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam (9:29)Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam. (5:33)The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies (2:19))Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels (8:60)

The bible is the foundation for what fundamentalist like myself believe. Those who accept it don't find it full of inconsistencies or contradictions. It may have taken 300 years to officially canonize all the letters into the new testament, but they were written, shared, and used in the churches long before that. They didn't have printing presses, but used copies long before the Roman Church compiled a single codex. The only evidence of authenticity comes from the testimony of the NT authors themselves, a person either finds their writings credible, inspired and consistent, or they choose to dismiss them as heretical. The bible is the Divine Word to those who faithfully receive it, but its just jibber-jabber to those who don't. I'm just stating what I believe, and not suggesting what you should believe. I believe God is in complete control and has always been very forgiving. You obviously have a lot of disdain for the biblical God, but remember that King David deserved death, but upon repentance he was forgiven of adultery and murder. Simply stated, I believe everyone will either receive God's Grace or God's Wrath, there is no middle ground.From the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Great Isaiah Scroll was discovered in Cave 1 in 1947. It was identified as the Biblical Book of Isaiah. The Great Isaiah Scroll has been carbon-14 dated at least four times. The four studies produced calibrated date ranges between 335-324 BC and 202-107 BC. Remarkably, the fully intact "Great Isaiah Scroll" contains the entire book of Isaiah that we read today, all 66 chapters! The Great Isaiah Scroll is almost identical to the most recent manuscript version of the Masoretic text from the 900's AD, this is phenomenal evidence for the credibility of biblical scripture. Source: http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls-2.htm

Just to clarify Pete, I don't mean to be critical when I say "you have rejected the bible". That's just my observation and opinion of anyone who views the bible as corrupt and non-inspired. From my fundamental pov, rejecting the sacrifice and purpose of Christ is tantamount to rejecting the NT and Christianity. But I understand that you do accept it as a fictional book with some meaningful sayings. You basically look at the synoptic gospels the same way I look at the gnostics, and I reject the gnostic gospels for the same reasons.

The assurance I have that things will be better is biblically based. That's the promise to every believing Christian and its what gives us peace of mind. Throw the bible out and all your left with is what you think, and that to me is faith based on no foundation.

Its true that I'd reject the Koran because I don't believe its inspired, and of course it contradicts what I do believe. That's probably the same reason you reject the bible. Since you don't accept the bible as God's word, it stands to reason that you would reject what fundamentalist say about it. Someone quoted this once before ; When Stephen Roberts, an athiest, was talking to a theist about the thousands of gods and goddesses worshiped by humans, he said: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." And that amazes me... Someone dies so you can live and you interpret it as a twisted perversion? God has always forgiven people for sin, but the wages of sin are death and someone had to pay. God would not and could not be righteous otherwise. To not atone for the significance of sin and its cruel effects would be unjust, and I personally prefer a 'Just' God. Everybody wants the resurrection; nobody wants the crucifixion, but one cannot occur without the other. How do you know if Jesus was actually a wise, caring and kind person, who did love God? Or that Christ ever existed at all? If the gospels are true, then the authors didn't adopt the Hebrew scriptures to prove Christ was the Messiah, but the scriptures themselves substantiated it. Remember that Christ himself often referred to the scriptures, he first quoted Isaiah 61:1 in Luke 4:18 proclaiming who he was. My point is that the gospels are either true or false, if a person can't believe Christ was the Messiah, then it would seem illogical to believe he was a kind person. Otherwise your trusting part of what's written while denying other parts.

I would assert that Christ demonstrated and taught the 'love' that you seem to find evasive or absent from the gospels. There's no condemnation in Christ, it only exist without him. That is why its not just religious dogma to believers, but the living Word. "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned" (John 3:17). It seems to me that you want a God of love while simultaneously rejecting the Word of God, which was manifested in Christ, and whom demonstrated his love for us to the utmost degree. "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him" (John 14:21). Its really that simple. What exactly did Christ do or say that you find so offensive? The two greatest commandments that he mentioned seem to embrace what your seeking. To believers, the bible is not a myth based in fear, but life everlasting founded in faith. Those that love Christ don't fear anything. "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:4&5). Yeshua did that for me unconditionally, I didn't earn or deserve it. I know that there's no torment or punishment for me because I've accepted him, as anyone can. But 'love' is a 2-way street, those that hate everything that Christ lived and taught also reject the salvation he promised.

It would be better to try and understand why God established an environment conducive to hardship and suffering. God told Adam; "Cursed is the ground because of you" (Genesis 3:17). Do you think that if God stopped all the suffering that everyone would repent from all wrongdoing and turn to God? I don't... In fact, I believe most people are often drawn to God due to the conditions of our existence. A day is coming when God will stop all suffering; "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Revelation 21:4). So yes, I trust such a God, and I suspect that He knows what he's doing.