Isaac_Kramer

I just want to say thank you to all of you for your advice no matter which way it swayed. I really appreciate it and wish no hard feelings for anyone. I have heard a lot of what I need to know to go forward with my decision and I appreciate everyone's honesty. Thank you! Isaac

Rev. Matthew, yes I am a member of that group, however I have really yet been able to spend time in it. I am planning on doing more research and reading on the boards this weekend. I don't like to just post until I have read some post for a little while first. Rev. H., I do agree with you. We need to come up out of the undergrounds and reclaim our place in the society. More Wiccans are wearing pentacles now. I believe that if we continue to fear persecution and allow other religions to hold it over us then it will happen. We have the fire this time, not them. As they say on Survivor, "fire is life". Perhaps if we as Wiccans used this chat forum to our advantage with the other Christians and non-denominationals reading it to educate like we are, they would understand us better. Flower, I know the history lessons. I taught them for years, but that doesn't mean I accept them as my path today. I respect what they did and why, dont' get me wrong. I don't respect that we have lived in fear for generations because of it. Paganism in all forms was one of the oldest religions of the world and one of the largest. We stepped down and hid because of a man in a robe quoting doctrines and stories. Now we wear the robes and can do the same without the violence. As for circles of no more than 13 we have broken that law several times. I know of many covens who have over 20 members today. If we are going to be willing to break the laws, than why stop there? Isaac

Thank you for bringing it back around. We are dealing with Point Of Views and is that the problem in our community? Have we come to a point where POV drives our beliefs and we have abandoned what our religion is about? I think that there is a large lack of communication, miscommunication, and arguments. I was reading on Yahoo Answers about Wicca being a fad and how it has killed the religion with "fluffies". For those of you who do not know what a "Fluffy" is, it's a term used to describe Wiccans (particularly those new to the Craft), who only see the happy, light, positive side of magick. This is one of the things that will drive an Elder of the religion, such as myself, up the wall quicker then anything. You have to break them down and teach them that we are not tree hugging, hippies who want to "feel the energy flow around us and soak in it's warmth". Some of you may know what I mean by experiencing this first hand. So how do we start communicating again?

Thank you for answering my question!

Dave, Thank you for seeing and understanding it for me.

I'm not talking about taking away anyone's freewill. The freewill still exist. The problem I seem to see is that Wiccans & Pagans associate organization with lack of freewill. Perhaps if we had a system of organization of some sort than we could govern our freewill. Do you currently have freewill to walk into a hospital or prision to minister without being questioned about your beliefs and intentions? Do you currently have the freewill to wear your pentacle without the possibility of being attacked by another? These are things that need to be addressed, from my point of view. I feel that the only way they are going to truly resolve is by us going in together, working together, and speaking together as a more organized, uniformed voice. "Power to the masses". It is a theory that has always been true. Million man march is a good example of this. Freewill isn't being taken from anyone.

This is a very hard task and I understand that it is not going to just grow overnight. And if someone ever did think that they were sadly mistaken as well. There is a lot of trust that must be rebuilt from over the years. The Council of American Witches is what actually gave me this idea a few years back. I have been sitting on it for some time waiting for the perfect moment. The COG has a lot of bad clout about them and I hope that one day they too will be able to move forward. As for a name I have been considering The Council of Ordains. I think that this pretty much describes how I feel it should be. I know to make this work I must "sell" the idea to the current sharks of the religion, ie: COG, ATC, Sacred Well, and Circle Sanctuary. Once I have them supporting this, we can begin to work together and bring in the smaller organizations such as churches like my own. I only have the purest of intentions and hope that this is convied in what I do, though I will not have control. Though I am experienced, I do not feel as though I am "right" for the job as a Co-President of the Council, perhaps a Speaker or Council member at this time. Many groups self destruct when you have people who are unwilling to listen to one another. I think that if everyone understand the benefits of this Council than more will be apt to listen and assist. As the Rev. Matthew Brock said, "I would, however, love to see some kind of advisory board/committee that would help those of us interested in hospital/police/fire chaplain services." I think this Council will help us establish ourselves better in those areas and more. I just need to find people like him who are seeking growth to help make headway.

A friend of mine has a saying, "herding Pagans is like herding Cats". He explained to me that it would be difficult because each have a mind and diva-like personality of their own. However, it's not impossible if you have the right leaders to guide them is what he also tells me. The type of National Council that I would suggest would consist of over 300 leaders combined from all the states. Each one appointed by their local communities and serving terms that could expire or cause them to not be re-elected. This would be similiar to that of Congress but just for Wiccans. There would not be a defined leader, guru, pope, or another other extreme title in charge of the masses. There would be 3 President elects from inside the council to help keep things flowing. Each one serving a 3 year term with no caps and with no special privledges of any kind, just to help guide the council. This council would help in issues regarding: Education Affairs International Affairs Inter-Religious Affairs Environmental Affairs Armed Services Affairs Prison Chaplain Affairs Historical Ethics & Standards Services & Rituals Musical Elections Finance Public Services Security I guess what I would be imposing would mean for many of us Wiccans to place our differences aside to work together as well as throwing off our diva crowns and saying we are one. *This message is not meant to sound insulting in any way, and no cats were hurt nor offended in the process.*

See this is good. The idea of a council would be national level, I think that is the best way. I also see what you are all saying about the doctrine. I think what I really mean is something more standard across the board. Such as we currently use the Wiccan Rede, though I do understand that some traditions do not use it. I'm thinking perhaps if we took the time to establish a set training system for our clergy to help send them in the right direction. Say that they need x number of Psych courses, x number of languages, or x number of Wiccan and Pagan lit and history and so forth. I understand that there will still be the ones who disagree and will not see it and call themselves Wiccans. I just think that Christians and other religions would see us in a better light if we were a little more organized. The theory on not all witches are Wiccans but all Wiccans are witches has become false now days. As Rev. Matthew T. Brock and myself both state, we do not find ourselves really casting, but praying more. This is truly starting to become the norm. Is it that we are longing for some sort of deeper meaning now? Perhaps, but the truth is, it is happening. Elobob "Wiccan / witch wars happen every so often". True but as I have been hearing this one is not typical and many of the Elders I know say this may be the beginning of the end of the two being "confused", for lack of better term, as the same. I have no qualms with any religious beliefs nor with witches. The fact is though something large is about to happen, I feel it.

Let me start by stating that I am curious in learning other Wiccan ULC Ministers opinions on this topic, since it is Wiccan related. In Ohio and some of the other states that surround us, I hear about there being a wide division between Wiccans and Witches. There has been great discussion over the use of prayer vs. spells and it has gone as far as tearing friends apart, even covens. There are groups of people swearing that in order to be Wiccan you must be more Spiritual, therfore making Spiritual Wiccans. This is what my church calls itself. What I would like to know is, are there any other areas with this problem? How do you feel about this? Could this be the start of the true Spiritual Wiccan churches about to emerge? With this and our growing population numbers of this religion are we close to needing to establish some sort of doctrine? I personally do feel that we should have some sort of doctrine to help us better than the past. I also have no qualms of a form of fair counseled hierarchy, however, this is the same type of talk that could get me seriously hurt by some members/groups in our religion. Perhaps this view would help to usher us into a better light with some more conservative religious groups. I have several ideas along this line as well as what this type of counsel would be established for, though I feel few will actually listen right now. Please feel free to give me more insights from other Wiccans abroad instead of in my local area!

As a Wiccan ArchPriest I have a few different style of robes that I wear. I'm actually in the process of having a new one made for Beltane 2007, this is when I usually break out my new robes. I prefer ones that are open front from halfway down the top has a breast plate that covers my shoulders as well. If you look at my profile I'm wearing it in my picture. That is my older one. My newer one is red, ivory, and gold. I am a little tired of the black and gold. Some of my other members loved my robe so much that they had similiar ones created for them. Next will be stoles for the 2008 year to match our robes.

I had decided that after spending years in my religion and helping teach that is was time for the next step. Since I am Wiccan it was a little harder in 2001 to become ordained except through the ULC. Now that I have been ordained and leading my church my life has been on a wonderful ride that I wouldn't trade any day. In Their Light, Isaac