Dan56

I don't believe that's applicable to a spirit. How does a spirit die? Does it die? According to the bible it doesn't, and that's my simple point.

No doubt, religious fanatics do use radical views of their belief as justification to do bad things, but I believe its unfair to condemn an entire book as something that only prolongs suffering. Love your neighbors, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and the promise of eternal life aren't negative messages. And sorry, but I do accept the bible as 100% truth.. Call me crazy Think about it... You said you weren't afraid, but just resented being terrorized.. So you obviously didn't like or agree what you were listening to.

Deflection? I was discussing the belief in spirituality and somehow you switched that subject to astronomy? As you stated, belief is a philosophical topic, so I don't see the relevance of comparing it to something you can study by gazing through a telescope in your backyard. Yes, people die, stars die, etc, but God is Spirit, and its that spiritual side of humans that escapes you.

I don't disagree, nearly everyone dies physically.. But I was speaking spiritually.. Tell me how astronomy addresses spiritual death? And I don't mean the mere transformation of energy, because it fails to address your consciousness, and that's why I wrote that the limitations of secular thinking makes it a dead end street.

Lets just say that we don't define it the same way.. If I'm terrorized, I'm afraid, but apparently you just resent hearing something you don't agree with.

I guess I don't get the "threatening" part, but I get the "annoying" part.. If I were stuck in a subway with a Muslim who was preaching damnation & hell, I'd find it annoying but I wouldn't be afraid or terrorized because I wouldn't believe any of it.. I also agree that a subway is not the place to force a captive audience to listen, because they don't have the option to walk away and avoid it.

None intended... No one was threatening anybody. Christians just believe nonbelievers will perish, but folks who don't share such a believe should not feel threatened or care about it. That was my only point.

I didn't say secular thinking didn't have some common sense, but it answers nothing beyond what can be studied and physically observed.. nothing spiritual or beyond the grave. That was my point, imo not caring about God is a hopeless existence because it ends in death.

How can you be threatened by a book you don't believe is true? Unless you take the 'fairy tale' serious, it can't possibly be perceived as a threat, so how can it be a reality to you? e.g; if someone quoted 'The Three Little Pigs' to me, I wouldn't be threatened by a big bad wolf who says "I'll huff, and I'll puff, and I'll blow your house down". No change in subject, you claim I lacked imagination because I couldn't conceive of how what I wrote could be construed as a threat. My counterpoint was that you can't imagine any of it being true, so how could any of it be relative to you? Same with integrity, your morals aren't related to a belief, so your integrity is derived from your own internal sense of right & wrong, with no outside set of principles influencing or guiding what you think. And I have no objection with objective morality that's rooted in common sense. Also, people inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote the books, "No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation" ( 2 Peter 1:20).

I've established that my God is the right one and only one for me, but that's a personal determination that no one can establish for you. Establishing something as fact removes the necessity of belief. Yes, back to the obvious, belief is a choice, a choice you've chosen not to exercise. Life is a question mark.. Belief is the enthusiastic exclamation point to the meaning of life... The secular way is a dead-end period that answers nothing. I completely understand the difference between natural process and accident, I just believe the natural process is the result of intelligent design, and not some fluke way that everything just happen to fall into place and work together after some unexplained big bang. Not caring is having no curiosity, its having no sense of wonderment, it is surrendering to hopelessness.

Being barbecued is an indirect reference to final death. So there's no lie, just your inability to associate the Lake of Fire with being barbecued. (i.e; Lake of Fire = Fried alive, boiled or barbecued). Its a belief, not a threat. You've said that I believe in a book of fairy tales, so I must have a vivid imagination. You can't believe in anything you can't see, that's a lack of imagination. Integrity is rooted in strong moral principles, what set of principles do you adhere to?

I can't argue, your probably spot-on with that gentleman crack But no threat was intended, I just believe nonbelievers will be barbecued.. I can't imagine how anyone could feel threatened or be offended by that?

I don't remember, but I'm sure my comments of referring to you as an unbeliever were related to Christianity. Glad you re-examined your path into Pantheism, but I doubt I had any influence on your ultimate choice to believe in no God/gods, that decision emanates from within a person. I suppose its better to believe in no gods than to believe in the wrong one. Your real struggle is with "belief" itself, you can't or won't believe in anything...period... But that's okay, I understand that its very difficult for some people to believe in anything these days. But the philosophy of, "If you can't prove it, don't believe it" certainly leaves a void in one's life. Belief is your best guess to unanswered questions, while believing nothing is surrendering to what can't be factually known. One approach offers hope, the other invalidates any meaningful existence. If the universe was an accident, and nothing came from nothing, your on solid ground, but for myself, that assumption is much harder to accept than to believe that everything in existence is the result of intelligent design.. "I don't care" is an attitude of someone who's given up, can't find satisfactory answers, and is tired of trying to intellectually rationalize God, but God is not perceived that way. The answer to a divine being won't be found in any scientific experiment.

This coming from Mr Congeniality No, you got there all by yourself

Yes, we believe he is alive and well... We also believe we know the fate of those who reject him.

The truth seldom does... If it did, it would not be the truth.

Just to clarify, I in no way meant to imply that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for the death of Christ, no anti-semitism here at all. Jesus had thousands of Jewish followers, so I believe this threatened the upper echelons of a hierarchical system. Christ was likely perceived as a rabble-rouser that interfered with the traditional religiosity of the day. No doubt, his Temple intrusion disrupted the money flow too. So it wasn't 'the Jews', but rather a small group who had the authority and clout with Rome to demand his crucifixion. I believe Jesus had a populous following, so it would have been unpopular for Caiaphas to stone him for blasphemy, but who could argue with Rome? But the bottom line is that Christ came as a lamb to the slaughter and was rejected by his own (John 1:11). Who killed him is immaterial, if it wasn't God's Will and purpose, it would not have happen, and if it didn't happen, there would be no sacrifice for sin.

Just google, "total world debt 250 trillion?" and you'll get countless confirmations.. Keep in mind that your link is public debt, it excludes corporate, private, etc. "The UN Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD) says that global debt has risen sharply to $250 trillion". https://www.exchange.co.tz/global-debt-rises-to-250-trillion-driven-by-debt-fuelled-economic-sugar-rush/ https://richardduncaneconomics.com/the-world-is-300-trillion-in-debt/ https://www.silverdoctors.com/headlines/world-news/danielle-dimartino-booth-250-trillion-in-global-debt-will-not-be-forgiven-willingly/ https://community.oilprice.com/topic/4555-the-world-and-250-trillion-taking-stock-of-the-world’s-debt/ https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/global-debt-hits-a-new-record-at-247-trillion.html

While your technically correct that Pontius Pilate ordered his death, many Christians believe it was brought about by the Jewish hierarchy. The New Testament makes it clear that Rome crucified Christ, but it also says; "Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him" Matthew 12:14).. "Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him" (Matthew 26:3&4)... "Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man" (Luke 23:4).. "And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend" (John 19:12)....... So you can probably understand why many Christians believe certain Jews played a role in orchestrating Jesus’s death? Rome did not initiate it, the Temple guards arrested him and brought him to trial. "Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children" (Matthew 27:22-25). So instead of 'mieshec' writing; "The Jews arrested Jesus and murdered him", he should have wrote; "The Jews arrested Jesus and demanded he be murdered". Would Pilate (Rome) have killed Christ otherwise? Remember that the Jews had previously tried to stone Christ (John 8:59), and later actually did stone Stephen (Acts 7:59), so you can probably understand why many Christians don't perceive it to be a lie that they were responsible for his death, even though they did not physically kill Yeshua... jmo

True, without belief scripture means nothing It doesn't matter unless you believe it.

I know an Atheist who constantly tells me that no God exist, so perhaps you don't speak for all of them? I guess there might be levels of Atheism, some taking a harder line than others? I'd just say that if your position isn't "There is no God", or you haven't concluded "There are no gods", then perhaps your not a die hard Atheist after-all? But define yourself as you please, I think Apatheism describes you the best, you don't know and don't care.

Being a Republican describes my political affiliation while being an American describes where I reside and my country of origin, so yes, I can be both. But Atheists claim there is no God while Agnostics just don't know, the two aren't synonymous. Atheism draws the conclusion 'there are no gods', while Agnosticism makes no such determination. So I continue to see a distinct difference in thinking "There is no God" verses "I don't know if there is a God". Its tantamount to Christian saying; "There is one true God, but I don't know if He exist", which is like professing your faith and denying it all in one breath..But none-the-less, you need not explain or dwell on it, whatever works for you is fine with me. I get that he's an atheist because he doesn't believe and he's agnostic because he doesn't know; i.e, he can't believe what he doesn't know. Just as I could say that I'm a Christian because I believe and I'm an Agnostic because I don't know... But it just sounds absurd, like I'm straddling a fence. But then again, I know a person who claims to be Muslim and Christian, because she believes Allah and God are one in the same... Confusion on overload

I suspect the 7 years of tribulation aren't far off, and I believe it will start with a worldwide financial collapse that will make the Great Depression look like a picnic in comparison.. 16 years ago, the total world debt was $50 trillion, and now its over $250 trillion, so somethings got to give sooner or later.. jmo

That's fine, sorry for the confusion, but you did write; "That's why I'm Agnostic" and "That's why I'm an Atheist".. and now "I am an Apatheist".. So I don't think its me that's baiting? Atheism and Agnosticism are 2 different things, but its fine if you want to be both.. But it would be like me claiming to be a monotheist and polytheist? And then when you question how that's possible, and I accuse you of baiting me? Anyhow, there's no need for you to explain your conclusion that there is no God while simultaneously saying that you don't know if there's a God. Your better off sticking with Apatheism, I agree that it describes you the best.

I think it will be closer to 10 years, but who knows? I guess that's why it tells us to "Keep watch"... Tomorrow wouldn't be too soon for me