Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted April 10, 2018 Report Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, mieshec said: OK...The challenge is this.....MY GOD.....the God of Israel.....The God of Moses and Abraham......The God of King David.....What ever you believe.....convince me....convince me thru historical records......convince me thru archaeology........Convince me by the world around us.... and its people....GIVE ME PROOF....of a plan by whatever God or whatever you believe.....is the right understanding to the explanation of existence.....If this was the trial of the century in an American court room....Im ready to submit my evidence.....how about you....RIGHT NOW......ever since the manuscripts of scripture came to the eyes of man....mankind has tried to keep them secret.....tried to destroy the manuscripts.....Burned at the stake and tortured the innocent for reading and translating the book ....even books like the Quran are in agreement with scripture......I can keep going.......whatever you believe....whatever you can convince me that my fairy tale....is just what it is.....a fairy tale.....Im open for suggestions.....But in 2000+ years of its existence.....Scripture hasnt been found to be just a fictional piece of work.....and I dont force people to look at my discussions.....Im an Artist.....if you dont like what i have to say or the way i write.....dont reply and dont look at what i write....I dont write in fiction....just the truth.... Who finds it necessary to say stuff like that? Besides people who write fiction and present no evidence. You just said that you're ready to show your evidence. You said right now. Well? What have you got? Edited April 10, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mieshec Posted April 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2018 Believe in what???.....no hopes......no dreams.....no fairy tales........ NO LOONEY TOONS......is your imagination smaller than the universe........wider than the stars....Im just looking at the big picture.....i dont want anyone to be effected by my discussions......i just feel an urgency to be heard....the Truth is out there....im just looking at the racing program......and im always betting on the horse.....that nobody is not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mieshec Posted April 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2018 EVIDENCE.....WOW.....its a lifetime.....its story after story.....its digging in Egypt and Israel.....Its written in the sands of time.....its Freewill....and life without God....Its mankind....written in a book over 2000 years ago.....its like looking into a mirror.... seeing a very old man.....2000 years of age and on its death bed....its not being able to look into the mirror and asking yourself.....is this it.....is this all I am....how can you ask me for evidence......without seeing thru my eyes....you've never lived my life....so you have no clue what i see...i can give you all the evidence a man can see.....but....would you really believe me.....now would you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted April 10, 2018 Report Share Posted April 10, 2018 31 minutes ago, mieshec said: EVIDENCE.....WOW.....its a lifetime.....its story after story.....its digging in Egypt and Israel.....Its written in the sands of time.....its Freewill....and life without God....Its mankind....written in a book over 2000 years ago.....its like looking into a mirror.... seeing a very old man.....2000 years of age and on its death bed....its not being able to look into the mirror and asking yourself.....is this it.....is this all I am....how can you ask me for evidence......without seeing thru my eyes....you've never lived my life....so you have no clue what i see...i can give you all the evidence a man can see.....but....would you really believe me.....now would you You're the one who said he had evidence. You're the one who said he had evidence now. Alright. I'm waiting. Cut the crap. Show me something. Your mouth has been writing some big checks. Cash them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mieshec Posted April 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 The only evidence i need.....With all the archaeology found in the Egyptian Antiquities Museum ......The Israel Museum....which has artifacts from Masada.....the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran...The name Israel is first found on a slab called the Merneptah Stele which indicated the House of David....They Found King Ahaz's royal seal who ruled Judah between 732 and 716......They are still digging up Babylon....They found the Ishtar gate.....I can keep going...here...This is my Burden of Proof...........https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_in_biblical_archaeology One thing that's for certain....you certainly are not one....that can bring about the denial that scripture is a fairy tale....You do not stand in the shadows of those who's knowledge is in the pursuit of JUST A FRACTION....of proof.....scripture is null and void....over 2000+ years and NO ONE can prove it false........and you certainly have no credentials verifying your capable of giving me an educated answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, mieshec said: The only evidence i need.....With all the archaeology found in the Egyptian Antiquities Museum ......The Israel Museum....which has artifacts from Masada.....the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran...The name Israel is first found on a slab called the Merneptah Stele which indicated the House of David....They Found King Ahaz's royal seal who ruled Judah between 732 and 716......They are still digging up Babylon....They found the Ishtar gate.....I can keep going...here...This is my Burden of Proof...........https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_in_biblical_archaeology One thing that's for certain....you certainly are not one....that can bring about the denial that scripture is a fairy tale....You do not stand in the shadows of those who's knowledge is in the pursuit of JUST A FRACTION....of proof.....scripture is null and void....over 2000+ years and NO ONE can prove it false........and you certainly have no credentials verifying your capable of giving me an educated answer This is not about my credentials. This is about your dishonest claim to having proof. This is your dishonest attempt to change the subject. You talk big. You produce nothing. You spin the truth like a top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mieshec Posted April 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 how did dishonesty come in on this....Im honest and truthful....I didnt change the subject..... i answered your question and submitted a Burden of Proof......i dont talk big....im honest.....truthful......and im certainly not spinning tales or folk lore....just the truth...which is found all over the world....How about you....you've grilled me on my beliefs....ive been very vocal and courteous........How about you.....what can you tell me about your take on existence....can you give me a list of museum that supports your take on existence ......nothingness is what you understand.....and nothing is what you can provide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: Times beyond counting, I have been proven to be mistaken -- about a great many things. Hear! Hear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 4 hours ago, mieshec said: how did dishonesty come in on this....Im honest and truthful....I didnt change the subject..... i answered your question and submitted a Burden of Proof......i dont talk big....im honest.....truthful......and im certainly not spinning tales or folk lore....just the truth...which is found all over the world....How about you....you've grilled me on my beliefs....ive been very vocal and courteous........How about you.....what can you tell me about your take on existence....can you give me a list of museum that supports your take on existence ......nothingness is what you understand.....and nothing is what you can provide You said you have proof. You said that your proof would stand in a court of law. You said that your proof was ready now. You have not demonstrated your proof. That is the dishonest part. Your petty insults to me are not proof. They are rude without being instructive. Worse, we are now talking about your insults, than the subject matter at hand. The subject matter at hand is your evidence for God's existence. In this you have attempted to change the subject. Again, dishonesty on your part. Well? I'm waiting. You say you have proof? Objective evidence is what a court of law would demand. That is what you said. Evidence that would stand up in a court of law. Not some whining about seeing things through your eyes. Show me something. It was you who insisted that you had objective evidence for me. I'm calling your bluff. I think you have no evidence at all. You insist that you do have this evidence. Why am I still waiting? Regarding the substance of your insult. Yes. I understand nothingness. I am Agnostic. I do understand a lack of evidence. That is what you have given me. No evidence at all. You want me to provide you with something? What exactly do you expect me to provide? You are the one claiming to have objective evidence.. I am not claiming knowledge of God. That is what Agnostic means. You are claiming special knowledge. Provable knowledge. Evidence based knowledge. Objective knowledge. Ready to display knowledge. Still waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Dan56 said: Hear! Hear! Dan, what are you doing? Did I ever once claim to be inerrant? About anything? I'm not that far gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordon Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 18 hours ago, mererdog said: Is it not conceit on our end to presume conceit on his end? He leaves no room for the possibility that he is wrong about his God. You leave no room for the possibility that he is right about his God. No. Statements like : On 4/7/2018 at 1:04 PM, mieshec said: Sufficiency of scripture.....It is the infallible and undeniable truth and: On 4/7/2018 at 1:04 PM, mieshec said: It is the sole infallible " GOLD STANDARD" of faith and understanding and: On 4/7/2018 at 1:04 PM, mieshec said: God used the Jews to make his purpose known or: On 4/7/2018 at 1:04 PM, mieshec said: You just cant seem to come out of your singularity and: On 4/7/2018 at 6:15 PM, mieshec said: because its the most easy way to come to the throne of God All when related to the monotheistic God of Christianity are all precluding the possibility that other faiths are ALSO just as valid. Abrahamic scriptures have no relevance to me, because I do not follow them, nor do I have faith in them. The same holds for Santeria, any number of indigenous religions, and, frankly, most of the religious concepts from all throughout time. They are not mine, I don't follow them, and I don't bother with them one way or another. My faith is not for everyone, and in fact there are many people who I would recommend to avoid my faith, because it is not a good fit for them or they are only interested in the popular aspects of it. See all of the use of "zen" in popular culture... "Zen Crafters: total enlightenment in about an hour" No, what upsets me is someone, ANYONE (I have taken more than a few Pagans to task for this in my time) tries to put their own faith system out as the only legitimate or accurate one. I don't come up to you to share the Good News About Our Lord Buddha, so please do me the same courtesy. Invite people to ask questions if they so choose. Make statements from your own belief and be willing to discuss them. Don't stand on a street corner with a loudspeaker and decry the evils of this or that which you see to be against your own faith. Do that which is right. Pushing your views onto others while denying that their own ways are not valid, only yours are... That is not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Geordon said: Do that which is right. Pushing your views onto others while denying that their own ways are not valid, only yours are... That is not right. And yet... Isn't that what you are doing here? You seem to be pushing your view onto him. You don't seem to be allowing that his way is valid. You mention Do Only That Which Is Right? From ulc.net- Every person has the natural right (and the responsibility) to peacefully determine what is right. We are advocates of religious freedom. The true test of religious freedom is whether we allow others the freedom to do things we find distasteful. The true test of religious tolerance is whether we can tolerate being told we are wrong. Edited April 11, 2018 by mererdog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 2 hours ago, mererdog said: And yet... Isn't that what you are doing here? You seem to be pushing your view onto him. You don't seem to be allowing that his way is valid. You mention Do Only That Which Is Right? From ulc.net- Every person has the natural right (and the responsibility) to peacefully determine what is right. We are advocates of religious freedom. The true test of religious freedom is whether we allow others the freedom to do things we find distasteful. The true test of religious tolerance is whether we can tolerate being told we are wrong. Nobody is curtailing Mieshec's freedom. He is free to come here and be as rude, irritating, annoying, arrogant, smug and condescending as he likes. We have the freedom to respond. He can preach all he likes. Respect is earned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 17 hours ago, mieshec said: The only evidence i need.....With all the archaeology found in the Egyptian Antiquities Museum ......The Israel Museum....which has artifacts from Masada.....the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran...The name Israel is first found on a slab called the Merneptah Stele which indicated the House of David....They Found King Ahaz's royal seal who ruled Judah between 732 and 716......They are still digging up Babylon....They found the Ishtar gate.....I can keep going...here...This is my Burden of Proof...........https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artifacts_in_biblical_archaeology One thing that's for certain....you certainly are not one....that can bring about the denial that scripture is a fairy tale....You do not stand in the shadows of those who's knowledge is in the pursuit of JUST A FRACTION....of proof.....scripture is null and void....over 2000+ years and NO ONE can prove it false........and you certainly have no credentials verifying your capable of giving me an educated answer You asserted elsewhere that man is fallible(paraphrasing). That man is flawed. You are a man. Therefor, if all men are fallible and flawed, it is given that you as a man are flawed. Perhaps you are flawed in your vision of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 16 hours ago, mieshec said: how did dishonesty come in on this....Im honest and truthful....I didnt change the subject..... i answered your question and submitted a Burden of Proof......i dont talk big....im honest.....truthful......and im certainly not spinning tales or folk lore....just the truth...which is found all over the world....How about you....you've grilled me on my beliefs....ive been very vocal and courteous........How about you.....what can you tell me about your take on existence....can you give me a list of museum that supports your take on existence ......nothingness is what you understand.....and nothing is what you can provide There are many MANY museums that support scientific belief, so we don't provide "nothing". There are dinosaur bones, there are pieces of archaeology in abundance showing faiths OTHER THAN CHRISTIANITY throughout the entirety of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 55 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: We have the freedom to respond. To a degree. You agreed to terms of service. Those include a promise you made to refrain from personal attacks and abuse. Regardless of what you may think of someone, you have agreed to limit what you will say about them on this forum. One good way to earn respect is by keeping one's word, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 1 hour ago, mererdog said: To a degree. You agreed to terms of service. Those include a promise you made to refrain from personal attacks and abuse. Regardless of what you may think of someone, you have agreed to limit what you will say about them on this forum. One good way to earn respect is by keeping one's word, no? I'm a gentleman. I have limited my response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuchulain Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 he says we are blind, don't have an understanding of the truth, have meaningless existences. he gets a bit of pushback, and WE are the one's attacking? o.k....i've gotten the same from moderators...but o.k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mererdog Posted April 12, 2018 Report Share Posted April 12, 2018 20 hours ago, cuchulain said: and WE are the one's attacking? If I say my wife is pretty, I have said nothing about how anyone else looks. If I dont tell your wife she is pretty, it is likely because I don't think she cares what I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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