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I can see that you are serious, so I will give a serious response.   Over the years, I have held different views on God.  I have done a lot of shifting.  Some of it on this board.  For now a

If you follow the theology, it's actually much worse than that.  By doctrine, the sin we must be redeemed from, is Original Sin.  That is, the sin we inherit from Adam and Eve in the Garden.  Our grav

Then we agree?  The sacrifice was in vain?  

45 minutes ago, Pete said:

Why did God have to send himself down to earth to be his son to sacrifice himself to himself to convince himself to forgive us?

 

 

Because God said so?  None of it makes any sense.  At least, not to me.

 

If you want to start opening cans of theological worms, there are worse things on that shelf.  God impregnated Marry so that she could give birth -- to him.  very creepy.

 

Marry had to be a virgin, because -- sex is bad?

 

:umbrella:

 

 

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On 5/11/2021 at 9:33 PM, Pete said:

Why did God have to send himself down to earth to be his son to sacrifice himself to himself to convince himself to forgive us?

 

It had nothing to do with forgiveness, the sacrifice was for the remission of sin. God did not have to do it, nor was it to appease God, but done out of love to sanctify us.

God forgave people like King David in the old testament pre-Christ, but the damage (sin) wasn't dismissed until it was atoned for.

i,e; You can forgive someone for denting your car, but forgiveness alone doesn't remove the dent, someone needs to pay for that. 

Christ simply paid the price to absolve us of sin.

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4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

It had nothing to do with forgiveness, the sacrifice was for the remission of sin. God did not have to do it, nor was it to appease God, but done out of love to sanctify us.

God forgave people like King David in the old testament pre-Christ, but the damage (sin) wasn't dismissed until it was atoned for.

i,e; You can forgive someone for denting your car, but forgiveness alone doesn't remove the dent, someone needs to pay for that. 

Christ simply paid the price to absolve us of sin.

 

 

 

:sigh2:     Who made these rules?

 

:umbrella:

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5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

:sigh2:     Who made these rules?

 

:umbrella:

 

In my book, God makes all the rules.... Its common sense that a wrong must be made right, otherwise God would not be righteous.

If you cause damage, hurt others, or have evil intent, those things must all be accounted for. 

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4 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

In my book, God makes all the rules.... Its common sense that a wrong must be made right, otherwise God would not be righteous.

If you cause damage, hurt others, or have evil intent, those things must all be accounted for. 

 

 

Your God thinks the same way that you do?          :birgits_giggle:

 

:umbrella:

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On 5/11/2021 at 9:33 PM, Pete said:

Why did God have to send himself down to earth to be his son to sacrifice himself to himself to convince himself to forgive us?

 

I am going to assume you are referring to the Christian interpretation of God. Apparently it was to die for our sins, releasing us from the original sin of mankind from Adam and Eve.  

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7 minutes ago, Bones said:

 

I am going to assume you are referring to the Christian interpretation of God. Apparently it was to die for our sins, releasing us from the original sin of mankind from Adam and Eve.  

 

 

Such a God needs a lot of drama.  Who is making these rules, that God must proceed in this manner?  So much for God being all powerful.  A God that is incapable of letting go of it's issues.  

 

:umbrella:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Such a God needs a lot of drama.  Who is making these rules, that God must proceed in this manner?  So much for God being all powerful.  A God that is incapable of letting go of it's issues.  

 

:umbrella:

 

 

 

This is the result of man creating a God to fit its needs. The teachings of the Mother-Father God Jesus spoke of has devolved into this Christian "God".

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10 minutes ago, Bones said:

This is the result of man creating a God to fit its needs. The teachings of the Mother-Father God Jesus spoke of has devolved into this Christian "God".

 

Assuming that God has actual existence.  There is nothing verifiable.

 

:umbrella:

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7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Your God thinks the same way that you do?          :birgits_giggle:

 

:umbrella:

 

Thanks............  If a man rapes a woman, do you think God should just "let go of the issue"? You sympathy goes to the law breaker and never the victim, but a loving God can't ignore the victim at the expense of brown nosing her rapist. 

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24 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Thanks............  If a man rapes a woman, do you think God should just "let go of the issue"? You sympathy goes to the law breaker and never the victim, but a loving God can't ignore the victim at the expense of brown nosing her rapist. 

 

 

You are conflating the Adam and Eve story with rape.  Even for you, that is some fuzzy thinking.

 

:rolleyes:          :umbrella:

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On 5/16/2021 at 1:33 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

You are conflating the Adam and Eve story with rape.  Even for you, that is some fuzzy thinking.

 

:rolleyes:          :umbrella:

 

Your conflating A&E with rape? That's does not correlate with any point I was making. The only fuzzy thinking is changing the narrative to something unrelated to the initial subject, which was forgiveness verses the consequences of sin.  Point being, forgiveness alone does not eliminate the consequences of an offense, God could not be righteous if that were so.. i.e; It would be a sin for God not to punish sin.

 

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3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Your conflating A&E with rape? That's does not correlate with any point I was making. The only fuzzy thinking is changing the narrative to something unrelated to the initial subject, which was forgiveness verses the consequences of sin.  Point being, forgiveness alone does not eliminate the consequences of an offense, God could not be righteous if that were so.. i.e; It would be a sin for God not to punish sin.

 

 

 

You really do think just like your God.  Or is it that your God thinks just like you?  Who made that rule?

 

:umbrella:

 

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5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Point being, forgiveness alone does not eliminate the consequences of an offense, God could not be righteous if that were so.. i.e; It would be a sin for God not to punish sin.

 

Traditionalist Christianity showing its flaws here. No blame to you for being mislead by others. If the whole point of Christianity is to be Christ-like, why would God punish someone for making mistakes along the way? Also "forgiveness alone does not eliminate the consequences of an offense..." Whos forgiveness, God?  But only God can judge the growth and status of the soul. No human being is wise or omniscient enough to correctly access the spiritual statue of another. 

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7 hours ago, Bones said:

 

Traditionalist Christianity showing its flaws here. No blame to you for being mislead by others. If the whole point of Christianity is to be Christ-like, why would God punish someone for making mistakes along the way? Also "forgiveness alone does not eliminate the consequences of an offense..." Whos forgiveness, God?  But only God can judge the growth and status of the soul. No human being is wise or omniscient enough to correctly access the spiritual statue of another. 

 

 

I can see that you are serious, so I will give a serious response.

 

Over the years, I have held different views on God.  I have done a lot of shifting.  Some of it on this board.  For now at least, I regard myself as an Agnostic.  Uses differ, so I will give mine.

 

Agnostic

  • Someone who does not claim to "know".
  • The existence of God might not be the case.
  • The non-existence of God might not be the case.
  • We have no objective, verifiable facts or information about God.
  • In the absence of such verifiable facts -- it doesn't matter whether God exists or not.

Having said that, I find some ideas rather silly.

  • The story of Adam and Eve in the Garden is supposed to be actual history.
  • I am supposed to have inherited Original Sin.
  • God had to redeem me from Original Sin, by sacrificing himself, to himself. 
  • Because I need to be forgiven?
  • I need to be "saved".  From what?  What he'll do to me if I don't beg for forgiveness?

Over time, I have become mellow.  I don't worry about what others believe.  If they want to change my views; then they have to show me something.  Something more than the same tired arguments.  Something more than Scripture.

 

Christians have the Great Commission.  The risen Christ commands his followers to go forth with the "Good News".  Agnostics have no such command.  The beliefs of others is not my problem.

 

:umbrella:

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8 hours ago, Bones said:

 

Traditionalist Christianity showing its flaws here. No blame to you for being mislead by others. If the whole point of Christianity is to be Christ-like, why would God punish someone for making mistakes along the way? Also "forgiveness alone does not eliminate the consequences of an offense..." Whos forgiveness, God?  But only God can judge the growth and status of the soul. No human being is wise or omniscient enough to correctly access the spiritual statue of another. 

 

I don't believe God does punish Christians for making mistakes, because that would nullify the sacrifice of Christ. And I agree that when it comes to salvation or hell, only God can rightly judge a person.

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On 5/17/2021 at 3:37 PM, Dan56 said:

 

I don't believe God does punish Christians for making mistakes, because that would nullify the sacrifice of Christ. And I agree that when it comes to salvation or hell, only God can rightly judge a person.

But you're missing Jonathan's point. An all powerful God doesn't really need a sacrifice, or He would not be all powerful. Then, there's that thing about Him knowing what is in our hearts. So, what would really be the point of any sacrifice, if an all powerful God can make such judgements without folks jumping through hoops?

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11 minutes ago, Key said:

But you're missing Jonathan's point. An all powerful God doesn't really need a sacrifice, or He would not be all powerful. Then, there's that thing about Him knowing what is in our hearts. So, what would really be the point of any sacrifice, if an all powerful God can make such judgements without folks jumping through hoops?

 

 

If you follow the theology, it's actually much worse than that.  By doctrine, the sin we must be redeemed from, is Original Sin.  That is, the sin we inherit from Adam and Eve in the Garden.  Our grave sin is being born.

 

Because we are such sinful abominations when we are born, we must be forgiven by God.  For being born.  This is what requires the Blood Sacrifice of the Lamb of God -- meaning Jesus.  Jesus is atoning for us -- for the sin of being born.  Because God can not simply forgive us for the awful sin -- of being born.

 

Of course God, as the ultimate healer, could simply remove Original Sin from our genome.  Or if Original Sin must be cataloged as a crime, God could simply forgive.  

 

No.  God, the All Powerful is incapable of simple forgiveness.  Hence, this cosmic drama.  God must sacrifice himself -- to himself -- in the most horrible manner possible.  Then we can be forgiven.  What happens if we do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus?  Then we get the punishment that we deserve for being born under Original Sin.  That is eternal Damnation in Hell Fire.

 

I regard this as unbearable foolishness.  It is also, from my perspective, evil, depraved and insane.     :diablo:

 

 

:umbrella:

 

 

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