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On 5/31/2021 at 3:13 PM, Dan56 said:

 

The world was good, "God saw that it was good" (Genesis 1 :25). And God is good (Luke 18:19). So if your free choice is to reject and rebel against God, then how could your choice possibly lead to good? There's good & evil, you can't have it both ways. If you chose to murder a dozen people, how would that chosen path be good? What's sadistic is wanting evil choices to be considered as something good.

 

We live in a Fallen world separated from God, and in our fallen state with the introduction sin, the world that was good had to change. This was necessary to demonstrate the other side of the coin, the knowledge of evil.

 

 

As previously stated, after death you either go to Paradise or Hades. knowing your fate when you arrive in Hades is the torment, which is the mental anxiety of knowing that your final destination is the Lake of Fire.. Damnation is the Lake of Fire, there's no torture chamber that proceeds it, only the tormenting grief of knowing your fate.

 

 

Your still confusing financial debt with sinful debt. Perhaps my poor analogy? There's no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:22), that's the payment required to atone for sin. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), so without the crucifixion, without Christ, we are all dead to sin. When we believe in Christ, its our faith in him that absolves us of sin. For those who don't believe, the curse of the law remains in effect, you aren't washed in the lambs blood, and you come under judgement for your sins because you have no Savior.

 

 

You finally got it :)

There's nothing righteous if a judgement isn't just..

 

 If a woman is raped and God forgave her rapist and walked away, that's not an end to it. Because a bloody, beaten, & raped victim got no justice.

 

No, you are the one that seems confused. You keep saying there is no remission of sin without payment in blood, and that Christ paid it. By that technicality, all is needed is faith to be saved, as, again, payment had been already been prepaid. He came to fulfill the laws, not abolish them, thus his payment fulfills them. 

Btw, even the Pope believes that non-believers can be saved without belief in Him.

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I can see that you are serious, so I will give a serious response.   Over the years, I have held different views on God.  I have done a lot of shifting.  Some of it on this board.  For now a

If you follow the theology, it's actually much worse than that.  By doctrine, the sin we must be redeemed from, is Original Sin.  That is, the sin we inherit from Adam and Eve in the Garden.  Our grav

Then we agree?  The sacrifice was in vain?  

10 hours ago, Key said:

No, you are the one that seems confused. You keep saying there is no remission of sin without payment in blood, and that Christ paid it. By that technicality, all is needed is faith to be saved, as, again, payment had been already been prepaid. He came to fulfill the laws, not abolish them, thus his payment fulfills them. 

Btw, even the Pope believes that non-believers can be saved without belief in Him.

 

That's pretty much what I've been saying.. The counter argument has been that no sacrifice was necessary because forgiveness alone is enough.. That's what I disagree with. You can't nullify Christ, if forgiveness alone removed sin, then the sacrifice of Jesus was in vain.

 

The Pope is an idiot, he misses the whole point of Christianity, which is that Salvation comes only through Christ, reject him and the door is closed. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).. And of course John 3:16, "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

That's pretty much what I've been saying.. The counter argument has been that no sacrifice was necessary because forgiveness alone is enough.. That's what I disagree with. You can't nullify Christ, if forgiveness alone removed sin, then the sacrifice of Jesus was in vain.

 

The Pope is an idiot, he misses the whole point of Christianity, which is that Salvation comes only through Christ, reject him and the door is closed. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).. And of course John 3:16, "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

 

 

And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

 

In context, the verse is specific to a brother, meaning a fellow Jew sharing the same faith. The keys words are "without a cause" or good reason. This to me implies a false accusation that's based on nothing, its essentially wheeling a mean spirited judgement and groundless charge to intentionally hurt an innocent person.

 

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

In context, the verse is specific to a brother, meaning a fellow Jew sharing the same faith. The keys words are "without a cause" or good reason. This to me implies a false accusation that's based on nothing, its essentially wheeling a mean spirited judgement and groundless charge to intentionally hurt an innocent person.

 

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

 

I'm sorry I mentioned it.          :boredom:

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10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

In context, the verse is specific to a brother, meaning a fellow Jew sharing the same faith. The keys words are "without a cause" or good reason. This to me implies a false accusation that's based on nothing, its essentially wheeling a mean spirited judgement and groundless charge to intentionally hurt an innocent person.

 

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

To be fair, Jesus considered the gentile a brother, just as he did a fellow Jew, which is why he preached to them. (Which makes more sense, if he were preaching to bring them to God without conversion to Judaism.) Just as he considered everyone as neighbors.

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13 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

That's pretty much what I've been saying.. The counter argument has been that no sacrifice was necessary because forgiveness alone is enough.. That's what I disagree with. You can't nullify Christ, if forgiveness alone removed sin, then the sacrifice of Jesus was in vain.

 

The Pope is an idiot, he misses the whole point of Christianity, which is that Salvation comes only through Christ, reject him and the door is closed. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).. And of course John 3:16, "Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

No, the argument has been that sin isn't removed upon asking forgiveness, despite the sacrifice already made. You already gave examples of a rapist, still having to pay for his crimes even if asking forgiveness of God. Though the offender may lose their life in this realm, you'd prefer he lose his life in the next, as well, in spite of any demonstration of faith.

And, btw, the Pope isn't an idiot. Even in this day and age, there are still good people who have not hear the Gospel, but by all counts have not violated His commandments, even as they have never read them. But, you say they deserve hellfire, too?

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24 minutes ago, Key said:

No, the argument has been that sin isn't removed upon asking forgiveness, despite the sacrifice already made. You already gave examples of a rapist, still having to pay for his crimes even if asking forgiveness of God. Though the offender may lose their life in this realm, you'd prefer he lose his life in the next, as well, in spite of any demonstration of faith.

And, btw, the Pope isn't an idiot. Even in this day and age, there are still good people who have not hear the Gospel, but by all counts have not violated His commandments, even as they have never read them. But, you say they deserve hellfire, too?

 

 

Interesting.  To hear you talk -- it sounds like Christianity has something to do with Love.

 

:bye:

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21 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I'm sorry I mentioned it.          :boredom:

 

You have a tendency to take a few words out of context in order to radicalize the bible.. Sorry I had to correct you too.

 

13 hours ago, Key said:

To be fair, Jesus considered the gentile a brother, just as he did a fellow Jew, which is why he preached to them. (Which makes more sense, if he were preaching to bring them to God without conversion to Judaism.) Just as he considered everyone as neighbors.

 

I disagree... Jesus did not preach to the gentiles, that would have broken every prophecy about him. Where did he deem gentiles as neighbors or brothers? His purpose was to preach deliverance to Israel. it was only later that Paul took the gospel to the gentiles at Jesus request.

 

 "A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 He answered, I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” (Matthew 15:22-26 NIV)

 

13 hours ago, Key said:

No, the argument has been that sin isn't removed upon asking forgiveness, despite the sacrifice already made. You already gave examples of a rapist, still having to pay for his crimes even if asking forgiveness of God. Though the offender may lose their life in this realm, you'd prefer he lose his life in the next, as well, in spite of any demonstration of faith.

And, btw, the Pope isn't an idiot. Even in this day and age, there are still good people who have not hear the Gospel, but by all counts have not violated His commandments, even as they have never read them. But, you say they deserve hellfire, too?

 

My comments were made under the assumption that the person wanting forgiveness was not a believer. A court might forgive a rapist, the victim might forgive her rapist, his mama  may forgive him, but there is no redemption for a nonbeliever. Forgiveness alone is not atonement for sin, so a non-believing rapist is guilty. Someone (Christ) had to pay the debt, reject that sacrifice and there is no redemption for any transgression. That's Christianity 101

 

I still disagree with the Pope, there are lots of good people headed straight to hell because not believing is a sin in and of itself. Everyone will have an opportunity to hear the gospel, that's what the millennium is for.. I'm not saying good people deserve hell, but just that' everyone is guilty of sin. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

You have a tendency to take a few words out of context in order to radicalize the bible.. Sorry I had to correct you too.

 

 

 

 

As usual, you have misunderstood me.  I know better than to argue with you.  I know that it is useless and futile.  Yet, there I was again.  Arguing with you.  Time to stop.  Time to simply let it go and walk away.  I will put this into terms that you might understand.

..

As a dog returns to his own vomit, So a fool repeats his folly.
 
I'm tired of arguing with you.  I don't want to do it any more.
 
:boredom:
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9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

As usual, you have misunderstood me.  I know better than to argue with you.  I know that it is useless and futile.  Yet, there I was again.  Arguing with you.  Time to stop.  Time to simply let it go and walk away.  I will put this into terms that you might understand.

..

As a dog returns to his own vomit, So a fool repeats his folly.
 
I'm tired of arguing with you.  I don't want to do it any more.
 
:boredom:

 

Then by all means stop... You have no argument, all things biblical are not your strong suit, that's why its futile.

"Do you see a person wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for them." (Proverbs 26:12)

 

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6 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Then by all means stop... You have no argument, all things biblical are not your strong suit, that's why its futile.

"Do you see a person wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for them." (Proverbs 26:12)

 

 

 

:boredom:

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12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

You have a tendency to take a few words out of context in order to radicalize the bible.. Sorry I had to correct you too.

 

 

I disagree... Jesus did not preach to the gentiles, that would have broken every prophecy about him. Where did he deem gentiles as neighbors or brothers? His purpose was to preach deliverance to Israel. it was only later that Paul took the gospel to the gentiles at Jesus request.

 

 "A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

 He answered, I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” (Matthew 15:22-26 NIV)

 

 

My comments were made under the assumption that the person wanting forgiveness was not a believer. A court might forgive a rapist, the victim might forgive her rapist, his mama  may forgive him, but there is no redemption for a nonbeliever. Forgiveness alone is not atonement for sin, so a non-believing rapist is guilty. Someone (Christ) had to pay the debt, reject that sacrifice and there is no redemption for any transgression. That's Christianity 101

 

I still disagree with the Pope, there are lots of good people headed straight to hell because not believing is a sin in and of itself. Everyone will have an opportunity to hear the gospel, that's what the millennium is for.. I'm not saying good people deserve hell, but just that' everyone is guilty of sin. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

I disagree, and surely He did. He preached to all who would hear Him. In the masses, there were certainly some gentiles. Then ask yourself, if He wouldn't do it, Himself, then why ask it of His disciples? That makes no sense, whatsoever.

Another view of the exchange is that the woman did have belief, as such, He would not need to have answered. He rebuked the disciples when He answered them, however. The lost sheep are those in need of their shepherd, after all.

Was it not commanded to treat the alien as the native born? Surely, He would not have gone against that commandment. And for that reason, alone, He would consider a neighbor His brother, native or not.

Plus, He preached about God, not necessarily about Judaism. So, yes, again, He likely did so to the gentiles.

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Then by all means stop... You have no argument, all things biblical are not your strong suit, that's why its futile.

"Do you see a person wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for them." (Proverbs 26:12)

 

It is quite likely that you do not see your quote with the irony that others may see.

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8 hours ago, Key said:

It is quite likely that you do not see your quote with the irony that others may see.

 

I'm pretty sure that others did not see the previous quote with the irony that I did either, "As a dog returns to his own vomit, So a fool repeats his folly."

Returning to the same ole argument repeatedly with no new understanding.

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On 6/5/2021 at 8:01 AM, Dan56 said:

[...] there are lots of good people headed straight to hell because not believing is a sin in and of itself. [...]

 

And there we go with the threats again.. such a loving god Dan's god is...

 

:boredom:

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17 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

And there we go with the threats again.. such a loving god Dan's god is...

 

:boredom:

 

Its not a threat, its a biblical promise (Mark 16:16, John 3:36).. He is only a loving God to those who don't reject him, He's a God of wrath to all others.

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