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37 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Who else took the burden of sin upon himself to sanctify the repentant? Sure wasn't Muhammad or Buddhism.

No, I'm talking about anyone guilty of sin. Satan was the first to rebel and Eve listened to him.

From what's written, it worked out pretty well for A&E, they repented and demonstrated obedience after their initial screw-up.

 

There you go again. God is being said to punish himself in order to forgive others. It sounds masochistic to me. Only god cannot be killed because he is supposed to be eternal. 

Your talking about a god who only has one punishment and that is to kill someone.  

P.s. what is this about A&E. I have worked in one and people of all Faith's come through the door including christians. So much for this none intervening and none appearing god  that needs human interpretation. 

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I can see that you are serious, so I will give a serious response.   Over the years, I have held different views on God.  I have done a lot of shifting.  Some of it on this board.  For now a

If you follow the theology, it's actually much worse than that.  By doctrine, the sin we must be redeemed from, is Original Sin.  That is, the sin we inherit from Adam and Eve in the Garden.  Our grav

Then we agree?  The sacrifice was in vain?  

3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Who else took the burden of sin upon himself to sanctify the repentant? Sure wasn't Muhammad or Buddhism.

No, I'm talking about anyone guilty of sin. Satan was the first to rebel and Eve listened to him.

From what's written, it worked out pretty well for A&E, they repented and demonstrated obedience after their initial screw-up.

 

 

Sure wasn't Muhammad or Buddhism.

That is not the function or purpose of Buddhism.  If you knew anything at all about Buddhism, you would not say something that silly.

 

 

 

it worked out pretty well for A&E,

I was reading Genesis.  What were you reading?  No.  It did not --  "worked out pretty well for A&E,".  I am astonished that you would say such a silly thing as that.  Their exile was in tact.  Their punishment was in tact.  Original Sin was intact.  If you want to preach Scripture, you should read it first.

 

:umbrella:

 

 

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On 5/28/2021 at 9:21 PM, Dan56 said:

 

As can a child of God trust God to help them when they fall short and make mistakes. But without consequences, wrongdoing is dismissed without penalty. When you don't pay your mortgage or make a car payment, your home goes into foreclosure, your car is repossessed. Break or damage something and your required to pay for it. There's no magical law that makes the damage disappear into thin air, whereby there is no alternative interpretation, debts must be paid or damages are incurred.

 

Its the same thing spiritually, when morals (God's laws) are violated the penalty is death. Unless of course, a child can rely on their Father to pay the debt in their stead. I am right because its not an interpretation, the bible make its point blank clear. Christ bore the sins of all that believe in him, if there were an easier alternative, then his sacrifice was in vain. 

Sin and mortgage/car payments are nothing the same. False equivalence and you well know it.

Second, remember the part where if one has as much faith as a mustard seed can be saved? Asking forgiveness from God is a demonstration of that faith. But now you are saying it is just a lie, or that it really wouldn't matter, as it changes nothing.

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15 hours ago, Pete said:

There you go again. God is being said to punish himself in order to forgive others. It sounds masochistic to me. Only god cannot be killed because he is supposed to be eternal. 

Your talking about a god who only has one punishment and that is to kill someone.  

P.s. what is this about A&E. I have worked in one and people of all Faith's come through the door including christians. So much for this none intervening and none appearing god  that needs human interpretation. 

 

 

Christ came in the flesh and died in the flesh for the sins of the flesh.. Only an unblemished and perfect sacrifice could suffice, another sinner wouldn't.

Christ is life, those who deny him are dead to sin.

I never said anything about a non-intervening God, not sure what your referencing?

 

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Sure wasn't Muhammad or Buddhism.

That is not the function or purpose of Buddhism.  If you knew anything at all about Buddhism, you would not say something that silly.

 

 

 

it worked out pretty well for A&E,

I was reading Genesis.  What were you reading?  No.  It did not --  "worked out pretty well for A&E,".  I am astonished that you would say such a silly thing as that.  Their exile was in tact.  Their punishment was in tact.  Original Sin was intact.  If you want to preach Scripture, you should read it first.

 

:umbrella:

 

 

 

That was my point, Buddhism has no Savior, nor does any other religion.

A&E fell from grace, but where are they now? Paradise or Hades? Yes they paid for their disobedience, but from a spiritual perspective, which is all that really matters, they repented and were saved. Eternal life was re-established through Christ.

 

6 hours ago, Key said:

Sin and mortgage/car payments are nothing the same. False equivalence and you well know it.

Second, remember the part where if one has as much faith as a mustard seed can be saved? Asking forgiveness from God is a demonstration of that faith. But now you are saying it is just a lie, or that it really wouldn't matter, as it changes nothing.

 

Your not reading my analogies correctly. Debts in the bible is another term for sins. Both are something that your required to pay for. Nothing false about it.

Yes, we are saved by faith through grace. Nothing I said contradicts that. Simply put;  God is faithful to forgive us, but that alone didn't erase sin. It was Christ alone who atoned for sin, and without that sacrifice, there is no remission of sin. That's not a lie, and it matters because Jesus changed everything.

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

Christ came in the flesh and died in the flesh for the sins of the flesh.. Only an unblemished and perfect sacrifice could suffice, another sinner wouldn't.

Christ is life, those who deny him are dead to sin.

I never said anything about a non-intervening God, not sure what your referencing?

 

 

That was my point, Buddhism has no Savior, nor does any other religion.

A&E fell from grace, but where are they now? Paradise or Hades? Yes they paid for their disobedience, but from a spiritual perspective, which is all that really matters, they repented and were saved. Eternal life was re-established through Christ.

 

 

Your not reading my analogies correctly. Debts in the bible is another term for sins. Both are something that your required to pay for. Nothing false about it.

Yes, we are saved by faith through grace. Nothing I said contradicts that. Simply put;  God is faithful to forgive us, but that alone didn't erase sin. It was Christ alone who atoned for sin, and without that sacrifice, there is no remission of sin. That's not a lie, and it matters because Jesus changed everything.

 

 

 

That was my point, Buddhism has no Savior, nor does any other religion.

A&E fell from grace, but where are they now? Paradise or Hades? Yes they paid for their disobedience, but from a spiritual perspective, which is all that really matters, they repented and were saved. Eternal life was re-established through Christ.

 

Do you remember all the times you insisted that there was no damnation?  Only final death?  I remember.  Now this.  You really should stop making crap up as you go.  

 

Your not reading my analogies correctly. Debts in the bible is another term for sins. Both are something that your required to pay for. Nothing false about it.

Yes, we are saved by faith through grace. Nothing I said contradicts that. Simply put;  God is faithful to forgive us, but that alone didn't erase sin. It was Christ alone who atoned for sin, and without that sacrifice, there is no remission of sin. That's not a lie, and it matters because Jesus changed everything.

 

Not a lie.  A fantasy.

 

:umbrella:

 


 

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Posted (edited)

Yes Jonathan.  Dan repeating himself does not make it any more sane than the first time he said it.

If I entertain the A&E myth. God did not make mankind perfect or they would not have been tempted to eat the apple. Therefore to create something imperfect suggests god is imperfect and to demand a sacrifice for his own imperfect work is a nonsense.  

Edited by Pete
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It's Dan being Dan.  He only has so many tools in his box.  So he keeps bringing out the same tools over and over again.  In due course, he will tell us, yet again, how we hate his god.  Or his Scripture. or what ever.

 

Dan's current tactic is about how rebellious and disobedient we are.  How lacking in righteousness.  How our being disobedient blinds us to the righteousness of his cruel and evil god.  Just Dan being Dan.  Such pompous drivel.  Such insistence on our sinful nature.  All backed, yet again, by Scripture.       :boredom:

 

:bye:

 

:umbrella:

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Do you remember all the times you insisted that there was no damnation?  Only final death?  I remember.  Now this.  You really should stop making crap up as you go.  

 

 

Hades is the other side of Paradise, its where the lost wait until final judgement. After judgement, those condemned go into the Lake of Fire, that's the second death, which is the final death when body soul and spirit are permanently destroyed. Being sentenced to damnation is the final death. So my position has been unchanging, the only thing consistent is your unfamiliarity with biblical terminology.

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2 hours ago, Pete said:

Yes Jonathan.  Dan repeating himself does not make it any more sane than the first time he said it.

If I entertain the A&E myth. God did not make mankind perfect or they would not have been tempted to eat the apple. Therefore to create something imperfect suggests god is imperfect and to demand a sacrifice for his own imperfect work is a nonsense.  

 

Ever hear of free agency? We were created with free will and the ability to choose. Our inability to be obedient to God is no reflection on His perfection, but on our preference to rebel. I'm not the one repeating myself, I'm the one answering the same repetitious remarks with the correct answer. 

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On 5/29/2021 at 8:12 PM, Dan56 said:

[...] A loving Father would give His life for His children, exemplar Christ. Cant ask for more than that. [...]

 

Sounds a bit masochistic to me... I mean, If you know you're an eternal being then "dying in the flesh" seems utterly pointless, doesn't it? He could do it infinite times... he's eternal anyway, isn't he?

 

Not to mention it sounds a bit sadistic too. If you're almighty can't you just create a perfect world? One where my free choices will always lead to "good" outcomes, no matter what path I choose...

 

All very limited from a god that's supposed to be all-knowing (so "original sin" was known in advance) and almighty (but still chooses to create that imperfect world but then punish the beings he created that way).

 

Bah. :coffee:

 

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4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Sounds a bit masochistic to me... I mean, If you know you're an eternal being then "dying in the flesh" seems utterly pointless, doesn't it? He could do it infinite times... he's eternal anyway, isn't he?

 

Not to mention it sounds a bit sadistic too. If you're almighty can't you just create a perfect world? One where my free choices will always lead to "good" outcomes, no matter what path I choose...

 

All very limited from a god that's supposed to be all-knowing (so "original sin" was known in advance) and almighty (but still chooses to create that imperfect world but then punish the beings he created that way).

 

Bah. :coffee:

 

 

 

 

Just so.  The world's worst weekend ever, then on to glory.

 

:bye:

 

:umbrella:

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6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Hades is the other side of Paradise, its where the lost wait until final judgement. After judgement, those condemned go into the Lake of Fire, that's the second death, which is the final death when body soul and spirit are permanently destroyed. Being sentenced to damnation is the final death. So my position has been unchanging, the only thing consistent is your unfamiliarity with biblical terminology.

 

:birgits_giggle:

 

 

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
 
Dan, you should really stop making up crap as you go.
 
:umbrella:
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19 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

Christ came in the flesh and died in the flesh for the sins of the flesh.. Only an unblemished and perfect sacrifice could suffice, another sinner wouldn't.

Christ is life, those who deny him are dead to sin.

I never said anything about a non-intervening God, not sure what your referencing?

 

 

That was my point, Buddhism has no Savior, nor does any other religion.

A&E fell from grace, but where are they now? Paradise or Hades? Yes they paid for their disobedience, but from a spiritual perspective, which is all that really matters, they repented and were saved. Eternal life was re-established through Christ.

 

 

Your not reading my analogies correctly. Debts in the bible is another term for sins. Both are something that your required to pay for. Nothing false about it.

Yes, we are saved by faith through grace. Nothing I said contradicts that. Simply put;  God is faithful to forgive us, but that alone didn't erase sin. It was Christ alone who atoned for sin, and without that sacrifice, there is no remission of sin. That's not a lie, and it matters because Jesus changed everything.

No, I read correctly. Major difference is when payment is missed or overdue on car/mortgage, they are repossessed but you go on with your life. Not so with sin. But then, unlike car/mortgage, payment was already made by Christ, as you said. Thus, there is remission of sin by virtue of faith, even as little as a mustard seed.

So, if God doesn't allow anything to change despite a plea for forgiveness, a demonstration of said faith, then there is the argument that He isn't really faithful based on your model of Him.

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56 minutes ago, Key said:

No, I read correctly. Major difference is when payment is missed or overdue on car/mortgage, they are repossessed but you go on with your life. Not so with sin. But then, unlike car/mortgage, payment was already made by Christ, as you said. Thus, there is remission of sin by virtue of faith, even as little as a mustard seed.

So, if God doesn't allow anything to change despite a plea for forgiveness, a demonstration of said faith, then there is the argument that He isn't really faithful based on your model of Him.

 

 

You can make a stronger case.

 

Consider the example of a loan shark.  You know the type.  If someone owes him money, he sends a goon to collect.  Maybe break the debtor's arm.

 

The loan shark decides to forgive the debt.  Now he has two options.

  1. He can forgive the debt and walk away.  That's the end of it.
  2. He can send a goon after himself, to break his own arm.  It's what God did.   Because God is righteous.  Because someone has to suffer.      :birgits_giggle:

 

:umbrella:

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14 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Sounds a bit masochistic to me... I mean, If you know you're an eternal being then "dying in the flesh" seems utterly pointless, doesn't it? He could do it infinite times... he's eternal anyway, isn't he?

 

Not to mention it sounds a bit sadistic too. If you're almighty can't you just create a perfect world? One where my free choices will always lead to "good" outcomes, no matter what path I choose...

 

All very limited from a god that's supposed to be all-knowing (so "original sin" was known in advance) and almighty (but still chooses to create that imperfect world but then punish the beings he created that way).

 

Bah. :coffee:

 

 

The world was good, "God saw that it was good" (Genesis 1 :25). And God is good (Luke 18:19). So if your free choice is to reject and rebel against God, then how could your choice possibly lead to good? There's good & evil, you can't have it both ways. If you chose to murder a dozen people, how would that chosen path be good? What's sadistic is wanting evil choices to be considered as something good.

 

We live in a Fallen world separated from God, and in our fallen state with the introduction sin, the world that was good had to change. This was necessary to demonstrate the other side of the coin, the knowledge of evil.

 

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

:birgits_giggle:

 

 

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
 
Dan, you should really stop making up crap as you go.
 
:umbrella:

 

As previously stated, after death you either go to Paradise or Hades. knowing your fate when you arrive in Hades is the torment, which is the mental anxiety of knowing that your final destination is the Lake of Fire.. Damnation is the Lake of Fire, there's no torture chamber that proceeds it, only the tormenting grief of knowing your fate.

 

3 hours ago, Key said:

No, I read correctly. Major difference is when payment is missed or overdue on car/mortgage, they are repossessed but you go on with your life. Not so with sin. But then, unlike car/mortgage, payment was already made by Christ, as you said. Thus, there is remission of sin by virtue of faith, even as little as a mustard seed.

So, if God doesn't allow anything to change despite a plea for forgiveness, a demonstration of said faith, then there is the argument that He isn't really faithful based on your model of Him.

 

Your still confusing financial debt with sinful debt. Perhaps my poor analogy? There's no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:22), that's the payment required to atone for sin. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), so without the crucifixion, without Christ, we are all dead to sin. When we believe in Christ, its our faith in him that absolves us of sin. For those who don't believe, the curse of the law remains in effect, you aren't washed in the lambs blood, and you come under judgement for your sins because you have no Savior.

 

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

You can make a stronger case.

 

Consider the example of a loan shark.  You know the type.  If someone owes him money, he sends a goon to collect.  Maybe break the debtor's arm.

 

The loan shark decides to forgive the debt.  Now he has two options.

  1. He can forgive the debt and walk away.  That's the end of it.
  2. He can send a goon after himself, to break his own arm.  It's what God did.   Because God is righteous.  Because someone has to suffer.      :birgits_giggle:

 

:umbrella:

 

You finally got it :)

There's nothing righteous if a judgement isn't just..

 

 If a woman is raped and God forgave her rapist and walked away, that's not an end to it. Because a bloody, beaten, & raped victim got no justice.

 

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

The world was good, "God saw that it was good" (Genesis 1 :25). And God is good (Luke 18:19). So if your free choice is to reject and rebel against God, then how could your choice possibly lead to good? There's good & evil, you can't have it both ways. If you chose to murder a dozen people, how would that chosen path be good? What's sadistic is wanting evil choices to be considered as something good.

 

We live in a Fallen world separated from God, and in our fallen state with the introduction sin, the world that was good had to change. This was necessary to demonstrate the other side of the coin, the knowledge of evil.

 

 

As previously stated, after death you either go to Paradise or Hades. knowing your fate when you arrive in Hades is the torment, which is the mental anxiety of knowing that your final destination is the Lake of Fire.. Damnation is the Lake of Fire, there's no torture chamber that proceeds it, only the tormenting grief of knowing your fate.

 

 

Your still confusing financial debt with sinful debt. Perhaps my poor analogy? There's no remission of sin without the shedding of blood (Hebrews 9:22), that's the payment required to atone for sin. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), so without the crucifixion, without Christ, we are all dead to sin. When we believe in Christ, its our faith in him that absolves us of sin. For those who don't believe, the curse of the law remains in effect, you aren't washed in the lambs blood, and you come under judgement for your sins because you have no Savior.

 

 

You finally got it :)

There's nothing righteous if a judgement isn't just..

 

 If a woman is raped and God forgave her rapist and walked away, that's not an end to it. Because a bloody, beaten, & raped victim got no justice.

 

 

 

:wall:

 

 

I can't do this any more.  The wind is out of my sails.

 

:bad:

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

:wall:

 

I can't do this any more.  The wind is out of my sails.

 

:bad:

 

Don't bother, everything that needed to be said to answer the question has been said. No fun in watching extremists jump through hoops just to make their beliefs fit reality... thank you for your insights!

 

:coffee:

Edited by RevBogovac
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3 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Don't bother, everything that needed to be said to answer the question has been said. No fun in watching extremists jump through hoops just to make their beliefs fit reality... thank you for your insights!

 

:coffee:

 

Thank you for understanding.  I used to think I could get along with anybody.  Maybe not agree, but get along.  I was mistaken.

 

Interfaith has one fatal flaw.  The Fundamentalist who is here to correct our errors and bring us to his truth.  I'm so tired of it.  Our basic choices are to be silent and watch him poop all over the board -- or argue.  I'm out of steam.  I can't do it any more.

 

:bye:

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Thank you for understanding.  I used to think I could get along with anybody.  Maybe not agree, but get along.  I was mistaken.

 

Interfaith has one fatal flaw.  The Fundamentalist who is here to correct our errors and bring us to his truth.  I'm so tired of it.  Our basic choices are to be silent and watch him poop all over the board -- or argue.  I'm out of steam.  I can't do it any more.

 

:bye:

 

You're welcome. And you make a valid point (again). Although you must admit he's not "poop[-ing] all over the board" lately and refraining from off-topic posting... Although, having said that, I am asking myself why would someone who is so single-minded even want to be part of an interfaith community like this one... but now I'm wondering off-topic. (Maybe a nice new topic?)

 

:coffee:

 

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2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

You're welcome. And you make a valid point (again). Although you must admit he's not "poop[-ing] all over the board" lately and refraining from off-topic posting... Although, having said that, I am asking myself why would someone who is so single-minded even want to be part of an interfaith community like this one... but now I'm wondering off-topic. (Maybe a nice new topic?)

 

:coffee:

 

 

 

I remember when Dan was new to this board.  I forget how he phrased it, but he was explicit.  He was here to lead us to Christ.  There was a stink at the time.  The usual pattern.  The thread was locked.  It's largely forgotten.  I remember.

 

The terms of service are no help.  We must respect the disrespectful.  We must tolerate the intolerant.  We must endure Dan.  Now and then, I forget myself and argue.  It is foolish and futile of me, but I forget and argue.  It's a treadmill and a swamp.  It's time to let go.  Again.         :boredom:

 

:bye:

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