Jews for Jesus vs. Jews for Judaism (A Debate)


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, damnthing said:

Historically it was more of a 'jesus for jews' kind of a thing.

It is a bit confusing, if a jew is for jesus doesn't that, by default, make him an x tian?

 

 

 

I am a Jewish Atheist.  I can't really take sides, based on theology.

 

:mellow:

Link to post
1 hour ago, mark 45 said:

if one chooses(and i could be wrong),a person can claim to be jewish,and a jew for jesus.doesn't make them correct.

 

 

I can claim to be a horse.  That does not make it so.

 

We need to be careful with the question.  The questions that we ask influence the answers.  In my opinion,  the question should be -- Does a belief in Jesus as Messiah, negate being Jewish?

 

I used to have a circle of Hasidic friends.  They would respond to such questions by citing Jewish Law.  They would tell me, that because my mother was Jewish, I was Jewish.  My Atheism didn't enter into it.  My mother had made me Jewish, and my non-belief was not an issue.

 

This makes things a little murky for me.  As an Atheist, I can't very well appeal to Jewish Law.  It was clear for them.  I was Jewish.  My lack of belief was a non-issue.

 

Now, it gets confusing.  The movement of Reform Judaism (Reform with a capital R) changed the rules.  Reform Judaism recognizes Jewishness from either parent.  That is to say, someone with a Jewish father is Jewish.

 

Of course, the world of Orthodox Judaism had a fit.  But, it gets worse.  There is now a religious movement called Humanistic Judaism.  The foundation book for this movement is -- Judaism beyond God.  It is Humanism for Jews.  Another major split.

 

Without getting lost in the sub-fractures, we have an interesting development.  The world of Orthodox Judaism does not recognize the Rabbinic authority of Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Humanist, etc. rabbis.  When these rabbis conduct a conversion -- the process by which someone transits from being gentile to Jewish -- The Orthodox rabbis don't recognize it as being a valid conversion.  

 

What does that mean?  When a woman converts to (for instance) Reform Judaism, the Orthodox will insist that she is not Jewish -- so her children are not Jewish.  As an Atheist, I am not in any position to argue with the theology.  I know what the issues are.  I'm simply not able to take sides.  It wouldn't really matter.  Who wants my opinion?

 

It's a mess.  Entering the confusion, to make things more confused, are the "Messianic" Jews.  The "Complete" Jews.  Of course, they have it right and all the other Jews have it wrong.  Much like the other groups.  I have my opinion about them as well.  Nobody who is part of this mess, cares what a Jewish Atheist thinks.  It's just part of the mess.  So, I watch from the sidelines.

 

If God were real, is this how things would be?  Now comes the funny part.  I over simplified.  It's a lot worse.

 

:sigh2:

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

Link to post
On 2/5/2021 at 9:19 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] If God were real, is this how things would be?  [...]

 

Oh, may I please jump through that hoop. May I, may I, pleaaaaaase...? 🙃

 

From an extremists/puritan's point of view it is the proof that his god is real because his god has left the physical world to Satan to rule... :coffee:

Link to post
12 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Oh, may I please jump through that hoop. May I, may I, pleaaaaaase...? 🙃

 

From an extremists/puritan's point of view it is the proof that his god is real because his god has left the physical world to Satan to rule... :coffee:

 

 

That is an interpretation that had not occurred to me.  Hmmm.....

 

:mellow:

Link to post
  • 2 months later...

A few years ago I made contact with Jews for Jesus. I just found them more like a Christian evangelical church with a few Jewish trimmings but with no pretence at being part of Judaism. Just New Testament bible believing Christian's. 

Link to post
23 minutes ago, Pete said:

A few years ago I made contact with Jews for Jesus. I just found them more like a Christian evangelical church with a few Jewish trimmings but with no pretence at being part of Judaism. Just New Testament bible believing Christian's. 

 

 

Just so.  I have spent some time with one such group.  There are different such groups.  For me, the problem is reality.  I care about such trivialities as truth and reality.

 

I know what Hasidic Jews believe.  I know what Christian Jews believe.  In the end, they all go off the deep end.  The Hasidim have a cultural authenticity behind them.  Are they more in touch with reality?  Or what's true?  No.  To my understanding, the opposing sides are engaged in competing fantasies.  This makes it difficult for me to take sides.  On a purely emotional level, I do find the Christian Jews more irritating.  Also, more ignorant.

 

To my experience, the Christian Jews have a solid grounding in Protestant Christianity.  They don't know Jack ** about Judaism.

 

:umbrella:

 

 

Link to post

Not defending one religion or another but Christian's use the book of Hebrews in order to convince Jews of their standpoint. The trouble is the only thing the book of Hebrews convinces them of is how little Paul actually knew about Judaism and how unlikely it is that he was schooled in Judaism as he claims.

Edited by Pete
Link to post
53 minutes ago, Pete said:

Not defending one religion or another but Christian's use the book of Hebrews in order to convince Jews of their standpoint. The trouble is the only thing the book of Hebrews convinces them of is how little Paul actually knew about Judaism and how unlikely it is that he was schooled in Judaism as he claims.

 

 

Yes.  Paul, the big shot apostle, who never actually met Jesus.  He had a "vision".  Such claims carry no weight now.  They didn't then.  At least, not with the Jews of that time.

 

:umbrella:

Link to post
  • 5 months later...
1 hour ago, RabbiO said:

I don’t mean to open a dormant thread, but what exactly is being argued?

 

Good question :)....  I think there's confusion over what being Jewish is? If a Jew is a Christian, are they still a Jew? To me a Jew is a Jew, no matter what they believe, e.g; Jonathan is Jewish..

Doesn't being a Jew just mean that your of Jewish ancestry? Like being a Benjamite just means that your from a different tribe? Judaism was the common Hebrew Abrahamic religion among the 12 tribes, so a person can't be Jewish if they haven't descended from Judah. A Jew can be a Christian and remain Jewish, but a gentile converting to Judaism doesn't make them a Jew. Actually, I believe Jonathan once wrote that he descended from the tribe of Levi, which would make him a Levite and not a Jew? Now-a-days its all the same, a common belief shared by the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel). 

Edited by Dan56
Link to post
On 10/12/2021 at 11:27 PM, RabbiO said:

I don’t mean to open a dormant thread, but what exactly is being argued?

 

I made the foolish mistake of posting something from a "messianic rabbi".  It was one of my dumber moves.  I thought it might lead to interesting conversation.  Imagine my disappointment.

 

I posted some stuff from Jews for Judaism.  Another mistake.

 

In loose terms I suppose the subject is the old -- "what is a Jew?"  It could be interesting.  This has proven to be a bad place for it.

 

It's good to see you again.  I have missed your presence on the board.

 

Good Shabbos.

 

 

 

 

Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.