God is not a Good Theory (Sean Carroll)


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  • 2 months later...
1 hour ago, MohammadMatthews said:

How complicated he is about simple things. Ancient people invented God because they simply did not know any other way to explain how the world works. But now we have learnt a lot about the world and the existence of a god in it is not necessary.

 

In fairness, there is more to it than that.  People really enjoy creating personifications.  The process of creating concrete forms for abstract things.  I'll leave the why of it to Psychologists and Anthropologists.

 

Consider the Statue of Liberty.  We need only add an altar and a priesthood, and we can actually worship at Freedom's feet.

 

Old Man Winter is on TV commercials.   The poor old deity has been reduced to selling snow tires.

 

I expect that this tendency to personification has been with us, as long as there have been people.  That does not mean that anybody thinks these entities exist as anything more than visual poetry.  Then religion comes along -- and we have a god.  In my opinion.

 

:mellow:

 

 

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7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

In fairness, there is more to it than that.  People really enjoy creating personifications.  The process of creating concrete forms for abstract things.  I'll leave the why of it to Psychologists and Anthropologists.

 

Consider the Statue of Liberty.  We need only add an altar and a priesthood, and we can actually worship at Freedom's feet.

 

Old Man Winter is on TV commercials.   The poor old deity has been reduced to selling snow tires.

 

I expect that this tendency to personification has been with us, as long as there have been people.  That does not mean that anybody thinks these entities exist as anything more than visual poetry.  Then religion comes along -- and we have a god.  In my opinion.

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

And then there is even more to it:

 

If we take a (very basic) look at some gradations of religions (basically from the "natural" polytheistic all the way to the three "big" monotheistic religions from today) we see a historical clear shifting from "explain[-ing] how the world works" to "controlling the masses". The denser the populations of humanity became the more we shifted towards monotheism and the clergy to "support" it...




 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

And then there is even more to it:

 

If we take a (very basic) look at some gradations of religions (basically from the "natural" polytheistic all the way to the three "big" monotheistic religions from today) we see a historical clear shifting from "explain[-ing] how the world works" to "controlling the masses". The denser the populations of humanity became the more we shifted towards monotheism and the clergy to "support" it...




 

 

 

 

 

I understand the development of the gods, in a somewhat different manner.

 

Consider the "Mighty Thor" of Norse mythos.  The Mighty Thor personifies Chaos.

  • He is the god of Thunder.  Thor personifies the Chaos of the Storm.
  • He is a war god.  Thor personifies the Chaos of Battle.

Which brings us to magic.  A priest who can influence The Mighty Thor, can influence the forces of chaos.

 

Which brings us to God with the big G.  God who personifies everything.

  • All Powerful
  • All Knowing

I think God's priesthood was trying to control, or at least influence, the ultimate power.  To have the ultimate magic.  Alas for them, they lost control of their creation and became it's servants.  It was Freud who observed -- "Man created God in his own image."

 

I can't prove anything.  This is simply my sense of things.

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I understand the development of the gods, in a somewhat different manner.

 

Consider the "Mighty Thor" of Norse mythos.  The Mighty Thor personifies Chaos.

  • He is the god of Thunder.  Thor personifies the Chaos of the Storm.
  • He is a war god.  Thor personifies the Chaos of Battle.

Which brings us to magic.  A priest who can influence The Mighty Thor, can influence the forces of chaos.

 

Which brings us to God with the big G.  God who personifies everything.

  • All Powerful
  • All Knowing

I think God's priesthood was trying to control, or at least influence, the ultimate power.  To have the ultimate magic.  Alas for them, they lost control of their creation and became it's servants.  It was Freud who observed -- "Man created God in his own image."

 

I can't prove anything.  This is simply my sense of things.

 

:mellow:

 

 

But the sole fact that the gods evolved is an interesting one...

 

If we look at the scientific process we make conjectures/hypotheses, design and execute experiments to check our predictions and then either accept, adjust or reject the theory.

 

If we look at the evolving of gods (in the light of this process cycle) your Freud quote comes to mind... :coffee:

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

But the sole fact that the gods evolved is an interesting one...

 

If we look at the scientific process we make conjectures/hypotheses, design and execute experiments to check our predictions and then either accept, adjust or reject the theory.

 

If we look at the evolving of gods (in the light of this process cycle) your Freud quote comes to mind... :coffee:

 

 

 

 

 

The old gods have changes of name and form.  They never go away.  Mother Nature looks a lot like the ancient Earth Goddess.

 

Sometimes, the old gods hide in plain sight.  Cupid is -- Cupid.  Complete with bow and arrows.

 

If you're in the mood, I can go off on a rant about Santa.

 

:bye:

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On 2/19/2021 at 11:41 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

The old gods have changes of name and form.  They never go away.  Mother Nature looks a lot like the ancient Earth Goddess.

 

Sometimes, the old gods hide in plain sight.  Cupid is -- Cupid.  Complete with bow and arrows.

 

If you're in the mood, I can go off on a rant about Santa.

 

:bye:

 

That's the fun part; the "old" gods were just here to explain natural phenomena and to establish a "calendar" for cycles that had to be honoured for our survival and social well being...

 

The monotheistic gods were made my humans (to go with Freud on this one) to be able to control large groups of (other) humans...

 

At least so it seems... :coffee:

 

And don't get me started on Santa, as I live in the Netherlands where the traditional feasts of Saint Nicolas are still being honoured (5/6 december)...

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3 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

That's the fun part; the "old" gods were just here to explain natural phenomena and to establish a "calendar" for cycles that had to be honoured for our survival and social well being...

 

The monotheistic gods were made my humans (to go with Freud on this one) to be able to control large groups of (other) humans...

 

At least so it seems... :coffee:

 

And don't get me started on Santa, as I live in the Netherlands where the traditional feasts of Saint Nicolas are still being honoured (5/6 december)...

 

 

This is simplistic.  There are two forces at work here.  There is the desire of the priest class, to enslave others.  This, you are aware of.  You overlook the obvious.  The desire of the masses to be enslaved.  To have God -- or at least God's priests -- do their thinking for them.  To run their lives and tell them what to think and what to do.  To escape the burden of freedom.

 

The religious love their chains.               :whist:               :sigh2:

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This is simplistic.  There are two forces at work here.  There is the desire of the priest class, to enslave others.  This, you are aware of.  You overlook the obvious.  The desire of the masses to be enslaved.  To have God -- or at least God's priests -- do their thinking for them.  To run their lives and tell them what to think and what to do.  To escape the burden of freedom.

 

The religious love their chains.               :whist:               :sigh2:

 

:mellow:

 

Oh, I was just thinking about this when I read your post in the "Hedonism" topic about happy individuals...

 

O how the sheep love their shepherds... forgetting what a shepherd eventually does to his sheep... :coffee:

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2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Oh, I was just thinking about this when I read your post in the "Hedonism" topic about happy individuals...

 

O how the sheep love their shepherds... forgetting what a shepherd eventually does to his sheep... :coffee:

 

 

"Modern" urban people know nothing about shepherds.  You are spot on.  Real shepherds kill their sheep, eat their flesh and wear their skins.  This, after a lifetime of "fleecing".

 

If the sheep knew more about their shepherds -- or their politicians -- they would take their chances with the wolves.

 

Psalm 23

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. ...
 
The sheep do not understand what the shepherd sees in them.  They are property.  The shepherd owns them.  This is not about love.
 
:mellow:
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On 2/22/2021 at 7:24 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

"Modern" urban people know nothing about shepherds.  You are spot on.  Real shepherds kill their sheep, eat their flesh and wear their skins.  This, after a lifetime of "fleecing".

 

If the sheep knew more about their shepherds -- or their politicians -- they would take their chances with the wolves.

 

Psalm 23

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. ...
 
The sheep do not understand what the shepherd sees in them.  They are property.  The shepherd owns them.  This is not about love.
 
:mellow:

 

 

But it is sooooo scary to make your own decisions... :whist:

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4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

But it is sooooo scary to make your own decisions... :whist:

 

 

Of course it is.  That is why people want God to be real.  Why sheep follow shepherds.  Why authoritarians like Trump prosper.  Peter Pan lives.  "I won't grow up."

 

:mellow:

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