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cuchulain

value of religion

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15 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Yes, non defendable. <- period. You can jump through loop-holes all you want, but slavery is a bad thing. <- another period.

 

I'm not defending slavery, but because of the socioeconomic situation of old testament Israel, God did allow slavery, but He allowed it for a simple purpose: to help the poor survive. A person could sell himself into slavery (akin to indentured servitude) in order to pay off debt or provide a basic subsistence. If the alternative is starving to death, then I believe slavery is defensible, and God was right to allow it under prescribed rules. How would you have provided for the poor, the hungry, the homeless? Letting them die in the streets is what's not defensible!

 

12 hours ago, cuchulain said:

A person selling their services has a choice.  A slave doesnt.  Pretty simple stuff here.

 

Exactly

 

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You tell me.  Why would God -- the All Good -- prevent a preventable war?  When all it would have taken was a clear prohibition -- from Jesus -- on owning people as property?  Why would God prevent any war?  

 

But you asked me.  Alright.  Either God is evil -- Or God is a fantasy.  Maybe, an evil fantasy.  That explains why God would not prevent a preventable war.  It also explains how neither God, nor Jesus, could outright forbid slavery in all it's forms and permutations.

 

Greedy Preachers?  That's your answer?  Alright.  "By their fruits, you will know them".  The Gospels are bringing forth some nasty fruit.  Maybe, God should prune the tree.  If God existed.  If God existed and cared.

 

God said, "Thou shall not steal", did that clear prohibition stop stealing? God set the terms which regulated how servants were treated, but American slavery violated nearly all of them. So why would God prevent a war to correct the problem? The gospels don't bring forth nasty fruit, but people not adhering to the gospels do.. And God plans to uproot the tree, no one escapes judgement. "For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things" (Philippians 3:18-19)

 

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Just to be clear -- that was the best solution that God could come up with?  God?  The best mind of any and all time?  Seriously?  The best possible solution?

 

"Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death" (Exodus 21:16). Putting someone to death is a permanent solution. God is not an employment agency, nor does He provide public housing for the poor widows in the street, so without direct intercession, letting the poor be servants was a means to meet their needs.

 

We are flying to SW Florida tomorrow because the cold has gotten to us, so I will be incommunicado for a few days.

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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Wow.  Just -- Wow.     :blink:

 

 

 

You expected differently... but nothing new here, reminds me of your topic about the relation between mental state and religious fanaticism. In social/psychology studies it is well known as "confirmation bias"... I just call it "jumping through hoops/loopholes". :wall:

 

 

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4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

You expected differently... but nothing new here, reminds me of your topic about the relation between mental state and religious fanaticism. In social/psychology studies it is well known as "confirmation bias"... I just call it "jumping through hoops/loopholes". :wall:

 

 

 

 

Yes.  Just so.  I used to think that I could reason with anybody.  Clearly, I was mistaken.  It has been instructive.  I have to learn how to let go.

 

:coffee:

 

 

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19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Yes.  Just so.  I used to think that I could reason with anybody.  Clearly, I was mistaken.  It has been instructive.  I have to learn how to let go.

 

:coffee:

 

 

 

 

:coffee:

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Thank you.  Sometimes, I go off the rails, without noticing.

 

:drinks:

 

 

 

 

:cheers: we've all been there! Well... most of us... :whist:

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22 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Clearly not me ..😂

 

22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

You?  Never.     :birgits_giggle:

 

Off course! Obviously!!! :whist:

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However it got started, I just thrive in theocratic cultism. Knowledge and skill revered, the things of it kept in the temple and the best of ones works done for the glory of the God and in imitation.

If aliens needed gold slaves 12,000 years ago and thats why people try to get something in the sky to come back, it translated into the sanctuary of knowledge and preservation in an outrageously uncooperative and beastly world. Writing, medicine, history, the sciences all came from the temple and it it is likely the temple will preserve them again.

Beyond ones own divinity, if thats what it is, beyond others ideas of divinity, when they are even attempting to be honest, the tools of civilization, the pitfalls of it and its methods give religion real and practical value that is only temporarily assumed by societies. It is a well the upreaching seek to drink from.

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If there were no religion, knowledge would have been better preserved in my opinion.  How many texts were burned for religious fundamentalism?  How many are now beyond recall?  How many ideas have been stymied over the centuries because the prevalent religion disagreed with science and sought to silence it?  In more recent years I think of stem cell research.  In historical terms, how many cadavers were stolen in an effort to learn some small amount about anatomy without the church authorities throwing a burning party?  No...religion certainly saved some esoteric texts that supported itself.  But in broader terms, it burned where it couldn't convince.

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3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

If there were no religion, knowledge would have been better preserved in my opinion.  How many texts were burned for religious fundamentalism?  How many are now beyond recall?  How many ideas have been stymied over the centuries because the prevalent religion disagreed with science and sought to silence it?  In more recent years I think of stem cell research.  In historical terms, how many cadavers were stolen in an effort to learn some small amount about anatomy without the church authorities throwing a burning party?  No...religion certainly saved some esoteric texts that supported itself.  But in broader terms, it burned where it couldn't convince.

 

 

Yes.  Killing in the name of God.  Possibly not, the number one cause of death.  It's impossible to know.  But a major cause of death.

 

 

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On 3/15/2019 at 4:54 PM, Kunlong said:

However it got started, I just thrive in theocratic cultism. Knowledge and skill revered, the things of it kept in the temple and the best of ones works done for the glory of the God and in imitation.

If aliens needed gold slaves 12,000 years ago and thats why people try to get something in the sky to come back, it translated into the sanctuary of knowledge and preservation in an outrageously uncooperative and beastly world. Writing, medicine, history, the sciences all came from the temple and it it is likely the temple will preserve them again.

Beyond ones own divinity, if thats what it is, beyond others ideas of divinity, when they are even attempting to be honest, the tools of civilization, the pitfalls of it and its methods give religion real and practical value that is only temporarily assumed by societies. It is a well the upreaching seek to drink from.

Debatable. Writing, medicine, history, and science were all born from necessities of life, and not necessarily from any temple edict. Surely, engineers would have developed the wheel to move things easier, without the help of any religion. And no religion would have been able to prevent it from becoming general knowledge, yes?

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