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cuchulain

value of religion

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11 minutes ago, Key said:

If I might offer a bit of tangent by way of a science fiction television show, maybe a bit of insight as to why an alien might be interested in our religions in comparison to their own? On one or more of the Star Trek series, it is a practice of observing less advanced cultures that allowed them to better understand their own past development, and to better understand relations between foreign species or cultures, without violating a prime directive against use of influence or presenting technology that hasn't yet been manufactured by the observed specimens.

We may well read about our past, but how better to understand it than to watch it unfold before our eyes, without our involvement, of course.

 

 

Yes.  Like Jane Goodall, studying Gorillas.  

 

:thumbu:

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl
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A side note, "cultural dominance" is what it implies in name, dominance. Dominance does not need a majority, and could be a minority. (Look at the history of South Africa where whites, a minority race, dominated blacks, the majority race.) The very use of dominance does not present respect, yet demands it from those oppressed.

I think this is the confusion that maybe Dan has on the subject. Perhaps he intended "cultural majority", instead. Dominance is not an issue, except in numbers alone, and respect could indeed be practiced universally.

But, as much as this seems plausible, I really don't know his mindset, so how can I really know.

This is just a bit of speculation on my part.

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1 minute ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Yes.  Like Jane Goodall, studying Gorillas.  

 

:thumbu:

 

 

 

 

Exactly!!

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9 minutes ago, Key said:

A side note, "cultural dominance" is what it implies in name, dominance. Dominance does not need a majority, and could be a minority. (Look at the history of South Africa where whites, a minority race, dominated blacks, the majority race.) The very use of dominance does not present respect, yet demands it from those oppressed.

I think this is the confusion that maybe Dan has on the subject. Perhaps he intended "cultural majority", instead. Dominance is not an issue, except in numbers alone, and respect could indeed be practiced universally.

But, as much as this seems plausible, I really don't know his mindset, so how can I really know.

This is just a bit of speculation on my part.

 

 

Perhaps a bit of history.  When I protested the inclusion of "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance -- Dan's solution was that I thicken my thin skin -- and cough my way through the offending words.  Or stay silent.

 

No.  He means dominance.  Unless his other face is showing.  Both faces are on display on this page.

 

:mellow:

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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On 2/21/2019 at 6:36 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I was thinking in terms of historic parallels.  On Earth, missionaries frequently make "first contact" with isolated cultures.

 

As a matter of pragmatics, what would such an alien culture need?  The Universe is full of minerals and water for the taking.  Our own world is in the process of replacing workers with automation.  What do we have that an alien culture might care about?  Culture and souls.  The space between star systems is a long way to come for cultural insight.  Missionaries might be willing to make the investment.  I mean -- missionaries.......  Who else would bother?

 

 

 

 

Greetings to you my brother,

 

As you mentioned earlier, we could be mighty tasty :)

 

On a more pragmatic level, we don't know what resources we have on this planet that beings from other worlds might need.  A few posts back, someone had mentioned the 1980's series V.  Aside from wanting humans to breed for food and use as cannon fodder to fight their wars, they also wanted our water, which was running out on their homeworld.

 

Or indeed an alien race could be driven by the desire to explore for the sake of knowledge itself.  I would think that a race sufficently advanced to be able to travel in deep space would not have the desire to do so just to spread their religious views.  Not to say that their faith system may not be important to them, but I would suspect that any society that had gotten their, ah, stuff together sufficiently to  develop the technology necessary for interstellar flight would have grown out of the need to spread their faith by force or for it even to be driven by a primary desire to proselytize.  Even in our own earthbound religions, that isn't always an important aspect of faith.  

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

No.  Of course you don't find it disrespectful.  I'm looking forward to the day, that you find yourself with Muslims in cultural dominance.  I expect that you will find new value, in minority rights.

 

I wouldn't mind if Islam was the dominate faith. What would that have to do with me? Its not like I would be forced to attend a mosque. People have a right to believe what they want, its not disrespectful to you. No one is forcing you to go to church, mosque, or temple, so your not culturally dominated by anyone. There's not a special set of rights for the majority and a different set for the minority, we all have the same rights. I don't think that your insulted by the culture, your just intolerant of everyone who believes in something that you don't.. jmo

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58 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I wouldn't mind if Islam was the dominate faith. What would that have to do with me? Its not like I would be forced to attend a mosque. People have a right to believe what they want, its not disrespectful to you. No one is forcing you to go to church, mosque, or temple, so your not culturally dominated by anyone.

 

4.  There's not a special set of rights for the majority and a different set for the minority, we all have the same rights.

 

1.  I don't think that your insulted by the culture,

2.  your just intolerant of everyone who believes in something that you don't..

3.  jmo

 

 

1.  You keep repeating that.  In time, you will discover that you don't dictate reality.  No matter how many times you say it.

 

2.  This coming from you?  The Wheel turns.  When you find yourself NOT in cultural dominance; then you will understand.  Or understanding will evade you.  In which case, you will simply mourn the loss of cultural dominance.

 

3.  Yes.  Just your opinion.  Exactly what I have come to expect from you.

 

4.  If only you actually meant that.  We wouldn't be talking about cultural dominance.

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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22 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

This would be a great discussion if we had an alien or two to join in. In lieu of that, perhaps we can ask ourselves the question as originally asked. I don't know if religion has any value to any one (or not) because I can only speak for myself. I do not know if I could have formed a moral compass without the influence of religion because religion played a large roll in the society I was born into and raised. Whether or not I accepted or rejected religion in my own life does not mean it has had no influence. 

 

I agree with you.  We can't possibly know how we would be different, if religion had not been part of our culture.  Perhaps, we would both have become much better people, than we did.     :lol:     :birgits_giggle:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

 

As you mentioned earlier, we could be mighty tasty :)

 

On a more pragmatic level, we don't know what resources we have on this planet that beings from other worlds might need.  A few posts back, someone had mentioned the 1980's series V.  Aside from wanting humans to breed for food and use as cannon fodder to fight their wars, they also wanted our water, which was running out on their homeworld.

 

Or indeed an alien race could be driven by the desire to explore for the sake of knowledge itself.  I would think that a race sufficently advanced to be able to travel in deep space would not have the desire to do so just to spread their religious views.  Not to say that their faith system may not be important to them, but I would suspect that any society that had gotten their, ah, stuff together sufficiently to  develop the technology necessary for interstellar flight would have grown out of the need to spread their faith by force or for it even to be driven by a primary desire to proselytize.  Even in our own earthbound religions, that isn't always an important aspect of faith.  

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

 

Water is common in the Universe.  In our solar system, the Asteroid belt is full of mountains of frozen water.  There for anyone who wants it.  Free of gravity.  Real low hanging fruit.

 

What could be rare in the Universe is wisdom.  Or sanity.  High tech does not make a species wise or sane.

 

It would be nice if you were the historic model, that we could fall back on.  A minister of wisdom, sanity and judgment.  Someone who understands the perspective of others, without losing his own.  Alas, missionary zeal might be exactly the force behind First Contact.  Well, til they get here, it's all hypothetical.

 

:drinks:

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I wouldn't mind if Islam was the dominate faith. What would that have to do with me? Its not like I would be forced to attend a mosque. [...]

 

Try looking at the real world and how non-muslims have been or are treated in muslim dominated regions. You might change your mind...

 

Let me tell you from my (Yugoslav, orthodox christian) view: it's not so nice and pretty as you imagine.

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2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Try looking at the real world and how non-muslims have been or are treated in muslim dominated regions. You might change your mind...

 

Let me tell you from my (Yugoslav, orthodox christian) view: it's not so nice and pretty as you imagine.

 

 

If the experts on demographics are correct; Islam is the fastest growing religion, and we will live long enough to see it gain numeric dominance.  There should be some bitter humor, in watching to see how the Christian dominants take to the change.  I expect that they will find new respect, for ideas like minority rights -- and government neutrality in religious matters.  Of course, by that time, it will be too late to matter.  But the ideas will finally penetrate.

 

Of course, all the special perks, now enjoyed by the dominant Christians, are setting legal precedents for the new dominants.  I live in New York City.  I've already heard some of the new street preachers.

 

Dan will find out the hard way, what life is like in an Islamic dominated country.  I expect we all will.  At least those of us who live long enough.  I still think that Atheism is the world's best hope.

 

 

 

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On 2/22/2019 at 7:57 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This coming from you?  The Wheel turns.  When you find yourself NOT in cultural dominance; then you will understand.  Or understanding will evade you.  In which case, you will simply mourn the loss of cultural dominance.

 

I sincerely don't care about cultural norms because I'm not swayed or dominated by them.. I'd continue to believe as I do and would not be influenced by anything different, even if I were the only Christian in America.. But granted, its nice to have the fellowship of the majority and be in a culture that shares similar values and morals.

 

17 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Try looking at the real world and how non-muslims have been or are treated in muslim dominated regions. You might change your mind...

 

I was referring to the USA when I said that I wouldn't care if Islam was the dominate faith.. I'm quite aware of radical countries where sharia law is applied to everyone, and I agree, I certainly would not want to live in an environment like that. 

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7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] I was referring to the USA when I said that I wouldn't care if Islam was the dominate faith.. I'm quite aware of radical countries where sharia law is applied to everyone, and I agree, I certainly would not want to live in an environment like that. 

 

Name me 1 country where the Islam is the dominant faith and that you consider "not radical"... 

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22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

[...] I still think that Atheism is the world's best hope.

 

 

 

 

The only hope, public/state and religion should be divided. Religion is something for the private domain.

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1 hour ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Name me 1 country where the Islam is the dominant faith and that you consider "not radical"... 

 

 

Indonesia is the Islamic State,  generally described as Progressive or Modern.  The rules concerning "religious defamation" are enforced.  Everyone has to pick a religion, from the official list.  Atheism is not on the list.

 

People seeking employment in Indonesia, discover the doctrine of Positive Discrimination.  It is permitted to favor Muslims in employment.  Not that minorities are discriminated against.  Muslims are simply favored.

 

Radicalism is a creeping influence.  Small, but growing.

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Indonesia is the Islamic State,  generally described as Progressive or Modern.  The rules concerning "religious defamation" are enforced.  Everyone has to pick a religion, from the official list.  Atheism is not on the list.

 

People seeking employment in Indonesia, discover the doctrine of Positive Discrimination.  It is permitted to favor Muslims in employment.  Not that minorities are discriminated against.  Muslims are simply favored.

 

Radicalism is a creeping influence.  Small, but growing.

 

 

 

 

Indonesia, right... let's search for some news on Indonesia and Christians... what's the first hit!?! "Indonesian Christian politician held on blasphemy"... Yeah.... progressive compared to other Islamic nations... but to my standards... Well maybe that says more about my standards... 

And I don't know about that "Not that minorities are discriminated against." either... we have a (very) large former refugee community from Indonesia (mostly from Maluku) here in the Netherlands...

 

But let's see what the CIA World Factbook has to say on the topic. Oh wait, what does it say on Indonesia? "[...] inter-communal, inter-faith, and separatist violence between 1998 and 2004 in Aceh and Papua; religious attacks and land conflicts in 2012 and 2013; most IDPs [internally displaced persons] in Aceh, Maluku, East Nusa Tengarra) (2017)." Yeah, sounds like fun!

 

Good thing they are considered "Progressive / Modern"... :whist:

 

But as you already said: "Radicalism is a creeping influence.  Small, but growing." Enough running around freely taking some book way too literally. 

 

Edited by RevBogovac

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On 2/22/2019 at 4:54 PM, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

 

As you mentioned earlier, we could be mighty tasty :)

 

On a more pragmatic level, we don't know what resources we have on this planet that beings from other worlds might need.  A few posts back, someone had mentioned the 1980's series V.  Aside from wanting humans to breed for food and use as cannon fodder to fight their wars, they also wanted our water, which was running out on their homeworld.

 

Or indeed an alien race could be driven by the desire to explore for the sake of knowledge itself.  I would think that a race sufficently advanced to be able to travel in deep space would not have the desire to do so just to spread their religious views.  Not to say that their faith system may not be important to them, but I would suspect that any society that had gotten their, ah, stuff together sufficiently to  develop the technology necessary for interstellar flight would have grown out of the need to spread their faith by force or for it even to be driven by a primary desire to proselytize.  Even in our own earthbound religions, that isn't always an important aspect of faith.  

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

As plausible as that possibility might be, one would think that a species capable of deep space travel may have overcome the necessity of needing humans for food.

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6 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Name me 1 country where the Islam is the dominant faith and that you consider "not radical"... 

 

Perhaps your right... Maybe I should pick another religion I'd be willing to tolerate :).. I guess I was counting on the good ole US constitution to separate religion from state, but if the religion is the state like in Saudi Arabia or Iran, I'd be flat out of luck.

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Perhaps your right... Maybe I should pick another religion I'd be willing to tolerate :).. I guess I was counting on the good ole US constitution to separate religion from state, but if the religion is the state like in Saudi Arabia or Iran, I'd be flat out of luck.

 

 

The American Constitution is doing a poor job of protecting minority rights.  Don't expect it to neuter Islam for you.  Then again, you still preach Christian dominance.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

Indonesia, right... let's search for some news on Indonesia and Christians... what's the first hit!?! "Indonesian Christian politician held on blasphemy"... Yeah.... progressive compared to other Islamic nations... but to my standards... Well maybe that says more about my standards... 

And I don't know about that "Not that minorities are discriminated against." either... we have a (very) large former refugee community from Indonesia (mostly from Maluku) here in the Netherlands...

 

But let's see what the CIA World Factbook has to say on the topic. Oh wait, what does it say on Indonesia? "[...] inter-communal, inter-faith, and separatist violence between 1998 and 2004 in Aceh and Papua; religious attacks and land conflicts in 2012 and 2013; most IDPs [internally displaced persons] in Aceh, Maluku, East Nusa Tengarra) (2017)." Yeah, sounds like fun!

 

Good thing they are considered "Progressive / Modern"... :whist:

 

But as you already said: "Radicalism is a creeping influence.  Small, but growing." Enough running around freely taking some book way too literally. 

 

 

For all that, Indonesia is still the Moderate Islamic country.

 

 

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