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DoctorIssachar

Lessons In Apologetics, Part 1: Introduction & Agnosticism

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3 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Pretty much the same thing in my book... No evidence = absence of evidence... Your straining at gnats.

 

 

Seems all you do is hurl accusations lately... I've tried to answer every question without diverting subjects... It may not be to your satisfaction, but subjects relating to faith don't have definitive answers, belief in God is not a concept you can reduce to a monkey-see monkey-do mentality. 

 

 

I've never solicited anyone to accept my God, I've only stated reasons why I accept it by faith... Trust me, I'm keenly aware that your incapable of accepting anything by faith, you require indisputable proof, if you can't see or hear it,  you can't begin to fathom how it could possibly be true.. jmo

 

 

Do your ears hear what your mouth is saying?

 

For the rest -- Yes.  It is just your opinion.  As usual, ill informed and petty.

 

:whist:

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10 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Pretty much the same thing in my book... No evidence = absence of evidence... Your straining at gnats.

 

 

Seems all you do is hurl accusations lately... I've tried to answer every question without diverting subjects... It may not be to your satisfaction, but subjects relating to faith don't have definitive answers, belief in God is not a concept you can reduce to a monkey-see monkey-do mentality. 

 

 

I've never solicited anyone to accept my God, I've only stated reasons why I accept it by faith... Trust me, I'm keenly aware that your incapable of accepting anything by faith, you require indisputable proof, if you can't see or hear it,  you can't begin to fathom how it could possibly be true.. jmo

You see...reject was the word of emphasis.  But you would change that to 'no evidence vs absence of evidence'...you dont even see your answering the point that you use straw men deceptively, with another straw man.  You are blind or deliberately playing dumb.

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4 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

You see...reject was the word of emphasis.  But you would change that to 'no evidence vs absence of evidence'...you dont even see your answering the point that you use straw men deceptively, with another straw man.  You are blind or deliberately playing dumb.

 

 

You might be right about Dan.  Still, it seems to me that he's not playing dumb.  I think that he's the genuine article.  Dumb as a stump and thick as a brick.

 

 

Now we will see if this board still has a moderator.  I doubt it.

 

🙄

 

 

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23 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

You see...reject was the word of emphasis.  But you would change that to 'no evidence vs absence of evidence'...you dont even see your answering the point that you use straw men deceptively, with another straw man.  You are blind or deliberately playing dumb.

 

Still straining at gnats.... "there is no evidence, so we don't believe" verses "the absence of evidence causes them to reject"... No evidence is the same as absence of evidence, and not believing something is the same as rejecting it. E.g; If I believe something I accept it as being true, and if I don't believe something I reject it as being false... That's point blank, no straw man about it.

 

13 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Dumb as a stump and thick as a brick.

 

That's your best intellectual response? As always, its what you resort to when losing an argument, and it says more about you than it does me.

 

Do either of you even hear what your challenging? Your claiming that not believing something is completely different than rejecting it? If that's the case, I guess I can presume that your non-belief in God actually means that you accept God.... Doesn't get anymore illogical than that

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On 1/18/2019 at 4:22 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Still straining at gnats.... "there is no evidence, so we don't believe" verses "the absence of evidence causes them to reject"... No evidence is the same as absence of evidence, and not believing something is the same as rejecting it. E.g; If I believe something I accept it as being true, and if I don't believe something I reject it as being false... That's point blank, no straw man about it.

 

 

That's your best intellectual response? As always, its what you resort to when losing an argument, and it says more about you than it does me.

 

Do either of you even hear what your challenging? Your claiming that not believing something is completely different than rejecting it? If that's the case, I guess I can presume that your non-belief in God actually means that you accept God.... Doesn't get anymore illogical than that

 

 

:sigh2:

 

 

 

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On 1/18/2019 at 4:22 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Still straining at gnats.... "there is no evidence, so we don't believe" verses "the absence of evidence causes them to reject"... No evidence is the same as absence of evidence, and not believing something is the same as rejecting it. E.g; If I believe something I accept it as being true, and if I don't believe something I reject it as being false... That's point blank, no straw man about it.

 

 

That's your best intellectual response? As always, its what you resort to when losing an argument, and it says more about you than it does me.

 

Do either of you even hear what your challenging? Your claiming that not believing something is completely different than rejecting it? If that's the case, I guess I can presume that your non-belief in God actually means that you accept God.... Doesn't get anymore illogical than that

I've been working too much lately to take an active part in the forum's discussions, and was surprised that this "conversation" was continuing....

 

Dan....

There's a couple old adages about the futility of arguing with an ass: 

 

1)  An ass will never change it's mind, and only a "dumb ass" wastes his time trying to change it.

and 

2)  Once an ass has made up it's mind, the only way to change it is with a bullet.

 

Let it go...

 

Peace.

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9 hours ago, Songster said:

I've been working too much lately to take an active part in the forum's discussions, and was surprised that this "conversation" was continuing....

 

Dan....

There's a couple old adages about the futility of arguing with an ass: 

 

1)  An ass will never change it's mind, and only a "dumb ass" wastes his time trying to change it.

and 

2)  Once an ass has made up it's mind, the only way to change it is with a bullet.

 

Let it go...

 

Peace.

 

I'm really not trying to change anyone's mind, but just responding to questions and observances of others. I suspect they think I'm the hardheaded ass that never changes his mind.. and they're right. I'm sure my answers get redundant, but that's because I'm addressing the same repetitive questions. I'm not sure if they are trying to figure out why I believe, looking for concrete evidence, or just oppose what they consider a frivolous belief.  I view some of the negative responses as being rooted more in frustration than attack mode.

 

I believe everyone wants (needs) to believe in something, and its good to 'always wonder', because no one has all the answers. The post below was taken from an Atheism Forum at http://www.city-data.com/forum/atheism-agnosticism/


"As I write this, I'm watching my father sleep. He's losing his battle with cancer and the doctor doesn't think he'll make it to New Years.

Both my father and I are nonbelievers-Ive considered myself to be both and atheist and agnostic through the years.

I'm the type who will argue up and down that I cant believe in an afterlife because it doesn't seem scientifically feasible. But at this very sad time, I desperately want to think that when my dad finally goes, he'll go somewhere great where his consciousness will live forever. I realize that what I want isnt necessarily what is.

For the other non believers out there, how do you cope with death? What can I say to him to calm his fears? I need something now because I hate to think that this great man will be lost forever
" http:// http://www.city-data.com/forum/atheism-agnosticism/2998914-atheism-death.html#ixzz5diNp4gJq

 

So, people need hope, even when they can't rationalize anything beyond the here and now. Its a sad thing to me to see people who can't believe in anything, but the world demands evidence to conceive a truth, while God requires faith to accept the Truth. But as you say, its impossible to convince anyone who's made up their mind, but deep down, I don't think any of us are 100% certain of anything.  

 

 

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On 1/18/2019 at 4:22 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Still straining at gnats.... "there is no evidence, so we don't believe" verses "the absence of evidence causes them to reject"... No evidence is the same as absence of evidence, and not believing something is the same as rejecting it. E.g; If I believe something I accept it as being true, and if I don't believe something I reject it as being false... That's point blank, no straw man about it.

 

 

That's your best intellectual response? As always, its what you resort to when losing an argument, and it says more about you than it does me.

 

Do either of you even hear what your challenging? Your claiming that not believing something is completely different than rejecting it? If that's the case, I guess I can presume that your non-belief in God actually means that you accept God.... Doesn't get anymore illogical than that

 

You complained that you wanted an intellectual response.  Alright.

 

At this time, there is inadequate evidence -- for me -- to believe in your God.  If new, compelling evidence does show up; I am fully prepared to consider the new evidence -- and to rethink my position.

 

I must specify that I don't believe in your God, only for the sake of clarity.  There are so many other gods that I don't believe in.  So many other Scriptures, that I hold in low regard.

 

Evidently, the evidence which is now available, works for you.  This is not something that I am concerned with.  My position is that the available evidence, is not adequate -- for me.  Of course, you are free to base your beliefs on anything at all -- or on nothing at all.  Your issue.  Not mine.

 

In the meantime, for me, the subject is moot.  Until I find a reason to believe -- I also lack a reason to care.  I don't hate your God, because I don't care.  I don't hate your Scripture, because I don't care.  I don't even hate your religion, because I don't care.

 

I don't even hate you.  Your constant, insistent. misrepresenting my position does irritate me.  I do not expect or desire that you agree with me.  Only that you stop lying about my position.

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Until I find a reason to believe -- I also lack a reason to care.

 

Only that you stop lying about my position.

 

I've only suggested the exact same thing as you've written many times.. That you don't believe in anything divine (God), nor do you care.. So its puzzling why you think that I consistently misrepresent your position.

 

And I understand there's no direct evidence of any God, so its difficult for many to believe. Belief is a choice, so for myself, its simply a choice to accept a truth that appeals to me, and I don't need confirmation via tangible evidence for that.

 

The slogan of the founder of ULC (Kirby Hensley) was: "Do that which is right". So which of us has the authority to say, "What I believe, is "right' for all of the rest of you." ?

 

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3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] for myself, its simply a choice to accept a truth that appeals to me, and I don't need confirmation via tangible evidence for that.[...]

 

And it's your god-given right to do so. But do consider that people live in social structures. Rarely do people operate completely self sufficient. So it would be nice to respect other people's freedom; your freedom stops where other people's freedom starts. If you choose to put more belief into an age-old collection of books over the believe of empiric evidence, so be it. But don't bother other people by demanding certain privileges by doing so.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I've only suggested the exact same thing as you've written many times.. That you don't believe in anything divine (God), nor do you care.. So its puzzling why you think that I consistently misrepresent your position.

 

And I understand there's no direct evidence of any God, so its difficult for many to believe. Belief is a choice,so for myself,

 

1.  its simply a choice to accept a truth that appeals to me, amand I don't need confirtion via tangible evidence for that.

 

The slogan of the founder of ULC (Kirby Hensley) was: "Do that which is right".

 

2.  So which of us has the authority to say, "What I believe, is "right' for all of the rest of you." ?

 

 

 

1.  Is that how you determine truth?  It appeals to you?

 

2.  There you go again.  Lying about me.  I just got through explaining, that I don't care what you believe.  Why do you insist on trying to provoke me?  

 

:mellow:

 

 

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3 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

And it's your god-given right to do so. But do consider that people live in social structures. Rarely do people operate completely self sufficient. So it would be nice to respect other people's freedom; your freedom stops where other people's freedom starts. If you choose to put more belief into an age-old collection of books over the believe of empiric evidence, so be it. But don't bother other people by demanding certain privileges by doing so.

 

 

 

 

"God given right"?  :D     :lol:  Social conditioning does run deep.     :grin:

 

 

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It reminds me of a video on youtube by a christian.  They had a laugh because before an interview with either hitchens or dawkin, i dont remember which specific atheist, the atheist kept saying, 'i cant find my glasses...god, where are they'.  Of course, the christian tried to use this as proof that the atheist really believed in god...

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21 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

It reminds me of a video on youtube by a christian.  They had a laugh because before an interview with either hitchens or dawkin, i dont remember which specific atheist, the atheist kept saying, 'i cant find my glasses...god, where are they'.  Of course, the christian tried to use this as proof that the atheist really believed in god...

 

 

I find myself doing that.  In my less saintly moments, I've told a few people to go to Hell.  Long after the beliefs have died -- the idiom lives on.  It's alright.  I don't mind losing my beliefs.  Losing my sense of humor would be sad.    :lol:

 

:thumbu:

 

An afterthought.  I also don't get bent out of shape; when well meaning people say "bless you" when I sneeze.  Or when someone wishes me a "blessed day".  Nice intentions count for so much more than the wording.

 

:)

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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34 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I find myself doing that.  In my less saintly moments, I've told a few people to go to Hell.  Long after the beliefs have died -- the idiom lives on.  It's alright.  I don't mind losing my beliefs.  Losing my sense of humor would be sad.    :lol:

 

:thumbu:

 

An afterthought.  I also don't get bent out of shape; when well meaning people say "bless you" when I sneeze.  Or when someone wishes me a "blessed day".  Nice intentions count for so much more than the wording.

 

:)

 

 

 

 

Agreed.  I never understood the anger towards someone saying 'happy holidays' OR 'merry christmas', counting the intent as positive.

 

Of course, there are ways to twist positive sentiments.

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19 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Agreed.  I never understood the anger towards someone saying 'happy holidays' OR 'merry christmas', counting the intent as positive.

 

Of course, there are ways to twist positive sentiments.

 

 

Yes.  The War against Christmas; as fought by President Trump and Fox News.  Fake outrage, designed to keep the political base in a state of excitement.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

"God given right"?  :D     :lol:  Social conditioning does run deep.     :grin:

 

 

 

 

I thought you'd (both, you too cuchulain) would like the (intended) pun... :inno:

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18 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

But don't bother other people by demanding certain privileges by doing so.

 

Exactly  what privileges do you think I'm demanding?

 

15 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

1.  Is that how you determine truth?  It appeals to you?

 

2.  There you go again.  Lying about me.  I just got through explaining, that I don't care what you believe.  Why do you insist on trying to provoke me? 

 

I determine truth by what rings true to me. There are things about the Christian God I don't understand and don't like, but the over-all message does appeal to me. I've also listed some evidence that I find very convincing, despite the fact that  you discard it as lacking proof.

 

And there you go again... I said nothing about you that was a lie

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6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Exactly  what privileges do you think I'm demanding?

 

 

I determine truth by what rings true to me. There are things about the Christian God I don't understand and don't like, but the over-all message does appeal to me. I've also listed some evidence that I find very convincing, despite the fact that  you discard it as lacking proof.

 

And there you go again... I said nothing about you that was a lie

 

 

"The slogan of the founder of ULC (Kirby Hensley) was: "Do that which is right". So which of us has the authority to say, "What I believe, is "right' for all of the rest of you." ?"

 

Your words.  Just a few inches up on this page.  Here's a hint.  Don't lie and leave your printed words on view.

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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