Lessons In Apologetics, Part 1: Introduction & Agnosticism


DoctorIssachar
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45 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Translation; You have no answer... I've repeatedly defined Atheist as having no belief in any gods, and you wrote; "Atheists don't conform to your beliefs about Atheism".... So no provocation was intended, I just was pointing out that you contradicted yourself (again).  :yes: 

 

 

:sigh2:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I've stated repeatedly that Atheist don't believe in anything, I've even posted the definition of Atheism, so I'm aware that there is no belief of an atheist. And I agree that 'thinking' requires no faith.. But every time I submit that, Jonathan explodes saying that I have no idea what Atheist believe, so he obviously disagrees with the dictionaries definition of atheism.

 

In regards to faith, if there is not indisputable evidence to prove God exist, and this lack of proof renders an Atheist mind to be right, then imo they have faith that they have deduced the correct answer towards something where no definitive answer can possibly exist. So the way I look at it is that an Atheist trust that their own cognitive reasoning is correct, meaning that they have faith in their conclusion, and by extension, have faith in themselves, but not anything divine.

 

If I believe God exist, but can't substantiate it, I have faith that I'm right... If I believe God doesn't exist, but cant' substantiate it, I have faith that I'm right.. Everyone believes they are right, and faith is just an extension of belief. That was all I was trying to say.

 

 

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

 

:sigh2:

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Nobody can be so obtuse as to continually make the exact same mistake that just so happens to have been a trigger to a group, after having it pointed out numerous times...only to keep it up time and again.  The mods dont care to notice this deliberate baiting or legitimately think its insane(doing the same thing but expecting different results).  Its one or the other though.

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33 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Nobody can be so obtuse as to continually make the exact same mistake that just so happens to have been a trigger to a group, after having it pointed out numerous times...only to keep it up time and again.  The mods dont care to notice this deliberate baiting or legitimately think its insane(doing the same thing but expecting different results).  Its one or the other though.

 

Sure he can.  Dan has decided that he understands Atheism and Atheists.  That's all there is to it.  He's not about to let facts get in the way of his ideas.  You know.  Faith.  His ideas about Atheism, are part of his belief structure.  Think back on what he's told us.  He has to have answers for everything.  Not right answers.  Not true answers.  Just answers.  Answers that don't change.

 

I'm done with trying to correct him.     :wall:

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl
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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Sure he can.  Dan has decided that he understands Atheism and Atheists.  That's all there is to it.  He's not about to let facts get in the way of his ideas.  You know.  Faith.  His ideas about Atheism, are part of his belief structure.  Think back on what he's told us.  He has to have answers for everything.  Not right answers.  Not true answers.  Just answers.  Answers that don't change.

 

I'm done with trying to correct him.     :wall:

 

 

What i was saying is he DOES know...he chooses to deliberately aggravate and then play dumb.  Which is baiting, and a clear violation of terms...that seems to be ignored for some reason.  He does this on numerous subjects...but look at me preaching to the choir.

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On 1/12/2019 at 10:53 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Obvious sarcasm since your no Christian and have absolutely no desire to follow any rules.. But as I wrote, all the OT ordinances and statutes you quoted (mainly from Leviticus) were given to Moses as instructions in governing the Hebrew nation, but it all ended with Christ and the New Covenant.. Nonetheless, here are a few answers to the questions you downloaded from a typical skeptics website.

 

1&2.... "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities" (Romans 13:1) Slavery is illegal everywhere.

3.....  Blood is a clear sign a woman is in her period

5.... Christ became our Sabbath rest, so no need to kill yourself for working on Saturday.

4,7,8...  As previously mentioned, Christ became our High Priest and sacrifice, so no need for you to consider these rules

9... This statue was to not have a tuft of hair like the Canaanite priests, but replicating what no longer exist makes the rule void.

 

All your quotes were from the OT, your confusion stems from deliberately conflating the 2 testaments. 

 

 

 

And again an insulting and deliberately hurting post from you Dan;

 

Not only do I consider myself christian, I actually am part of the (Serbian) Orthodox Church (being a direct descendant of a line going back at least 600+ years of warrior-priests described in the book Poreklo Bogavaca i Njihove Seoba) even my very (last) name means "Gods' servant". Only I have evolved (read up on that notion too, while you're at it) and understand the Bible (OT & NT) in it's context. I certainly do not take it literal like you.

 

For the rest: no contradictions and jumping through hoops in your "explanation" whatsoever, right... :whist:

Edited by RevBogovac
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12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, I've stated repeatedly that Atheist don't believe in anything, I've even posted the definition of Atheism, so I'm aware that there is no belief of an atheist. And I agree that 'thinking' requires no faith.. But every time I submit that, Jonathan explodes saying that I have no idea what Atheist believe, so he obviously disagrees with the dictionaries definition of atheism.

 

In regards to faith, if there is not indisputable evidence to prove God exist, and this lack of proof renders an Atheist mind to be right, then imo they have faith that they have deduced the correct answer towards something where no definitive answer can possibly exist. So the way I look at it is that an Atheist trust that their own cognitive reasoning is correct, meaning that they have faith in their conclusion, and by extension, have faith in themselves, but not anything divine.

 

If I believe God exist, but can't substantiate it, I have faith that I'm right... If I believe God doesn't exist, but cant' substantiate it, I have faith that I'm right.. Everyone believes they are right, and faith is just an extension of belief. That was all I was trying to say.

 

 

 

No, Dan, it isn't exactly trust in their cognitive reasoning, nor faith in any conclusions. Merely acceptance of evidence given to them to confirm truth, one way or the other. Should the divine provide it with certainty, I have no doubt they would accept it, then believe it.

Btw, I'm not attacking you over this, should you feel that way. I am simply making an observation as an outsider gleaning information from the debates I've witnessed.

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21 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I thank you for your kind intentions.  Your efforts in this case are futile.  Dan doesn't care what Atheists think -- or believe.  He is determined to project his own values onto Atheists -- and facts don't matter to him. He wants his understanding of Scripture to be all right -- and those who reject that Scripture to be all wrong.

 

This much has become obvious to me.  Such a mind can't be reasoned with.  He is impervious to nuance and reason.  He sees no perspective but his own.  Facts bounce off him like water off a duck.

 

I think what is most telling, is that when Dan has nothing else to say, he accuses the Atheist of hostility.  Hatred of God, Scripture, Christianity, etc.  All projection.  Your efforts are kind.  They will fail.

 

:whist:     :mellow:

I understand your deep frustrations. I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. It seems to me, and I may be wrong, even far off base, that he may have some difficulty in relating to not using faith in some way to accept a conclusion. For him, all the "isms" deal with some form of faith. 

I think atheism, itself, isn't about having faith, but rather about acceptance of evidence or lack thereof, to base any conclusion. I hope I have at least understood your perspective a little bit, or enough to draw a conclusion close enough to be nearly correct. :pardon:

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41 minutes ago, Key said:

No, Dan, it isn't exactly trust in their cognitive reasoning, nor faith in any conclusions. Merely acceptance of evidence given to them to confirm truth, one way or the other. Should the divine provide it with certainty, I have no doubt they would accept it, then believe it.

Btw, I'm not attacking you over this, should you feel that way. I am simply making an observation as an outsider gleaning information from the debates I've witnessed.

I liken it to understanding observation.  The scientific process and education in general follow repeatable patterns with repeatable conclusions.  To an extent, there is a reason to believe that the same conditions and stimuli will reproduce those conclusions.  It is the observation, hypothesis and testing that lead to theory(something the avg person think means what hypothesis actually means).  For example, through the use of these principles, automobiles have been created.  When i turn the ignition, and there are no breaks in the mechanics, it is reasonable to believe the car will start.

Faith is believing in the hypothesis before any testing.  Its like taking some drug because someone with no qualifications beyond having done so themselves told you its safe to do so.  only neglected the instructions, or they werent clear.  Perhaps that home made penicillum gets rid of your infection.  Or maybe you get hives and don't realize that's not how it should work.  or maybe you die from complications of appendicitis and they failed to properly diagnose you.  You had faith but that's not as useful as knowledge, no matter how its communicated.

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4 hours ago, Key said:

I understand your deep frustrations. I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. It seems to me, and I may be wrong, even far off base, that he may have some difficulty in relating to not using faith in some way to accept a conclusion. For him, all the "isms" deal with some form of faith. 

I think atheism, itself, isn't about having faith, but rather about acceptance of evidence or lack thereof, to base any conclusion. I hope I have at least understood your perspective a little bit, or enough to draw a conclusion close enough to be nearly correct. :pardon:

 

 

You nailed it.  Atheism is that simple.  Due to inadequate evidence, belief in God is not justified.  Pending further information.

 

Nothing to do with any other issue.  Not a system of thought, ethics, philosophy or anything else.  Not a source of alternative answers.

 

There are some standard arguing points, that believers insist on bringing up. 

 

"If there's no God, where did we come from?"  I refuse to argue about evolution theory.  The simple answer is -- I don't know.

 

"If there's no God, where did everything come from?"  I refuse to argue Cosmology.  The simple answer is -- I don't know.

 

While I am inclined to go along with mainstream science in these matters; they have nothing to do with Atheism.

 

As to Dan's understanding:  I am convinced that he is incapable of understanding any point of view, except his own -- in any area.  To Dan, a person is either all right, or all wrong.  Since God speaks through him, he is all right.  That leaves me to be all wrong.  That means his only answer, is to correct my error.  We have been arguing for years.  I'm tired of taking his crap -- and I don't have to.  In particular, I'm tired of his pronouncements that I'm angry.  Or that I hate God.  For an Atheist, hating God is like being upset over Dracula.  There are a lot of fictional characters that I don't like.  None of it involves my hating them.

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, cuchulain said:

What i was saying is he DOES know...he chooses to deliberately aggravate and then play dumb.  Which is baiting, and a clear violation of terms...that seems to be ignored for some reason.  He does this on numerous subjects...but look at me preaching to the choir.

 

 

Maybe you're right.  Maybe he is playing dumb.  On reflection, I think he really is that limited.

 

:mellow:

 

 

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

You nailed it.  Atheism is that simple.  Due to inadequate evidence, belief in God is not justified.  Pending further information.

 

Nothing to do with any other issue.  Not a system of thought, ethics, philosophy or anything else.  Not a source of alternative answers.

 

There are some standard arguing points, that believers insist on bringing up. 

 

"If there's no God, where did we come from?"  I refuse to argue about evolution theory.  The simple answer is -- I don't know.

 

"If there's no God, where did everything come from?"  I refuse to argue Cosmology.  The simple answer is -- I don't know.

 

While I am inclined to go along with mainstream science in these matters; they have nothing to do with Atheism.

 

As to Dan's understanding:  I am convinced that he is incapable of understanding any point of view, except his own -- in any area.  To Dan, a person is either all right, or all wrong.  Since God speaks through him, he is all right.  That leaves me to be all wrong.  That means his only answer, is to correct my error.  We have been arguing for years.  I'm tired of taking his crap -- and I don't have to.  In particular, I'm tired of his pronouncements that I'm angry.  Or that I hate God.  For an Atheist, hating God is like being upset over Dracula.  There are a lot of fictional characters that I don't like.  None of it involves my hating them.

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

 

Though the horse be dead and drawing flies, still we cannot resist our turn at bat.

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11 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

And again an insulting and deliberately hurting post from you Dan;

 

Not only do I consider myself christian, I actually am part of the (Serbian) Orthodox Church

 

Sorry, but your comment "I'd really like to buy a Brit" seemed like sarcasm to me, but perhaps I misinterpreted your brand of humor? Plus, the questions you submitted were very consistent with those that Atheist ask.. I guess fundamentalism and orthodoxy don't mesh.

 

10 hours ago, Key said:

No, Dan, it isn't exactly trust in their cognitive reasoning, nor faith in any conclusions. Merely acceptance of evidence given to them to confirm truth, one way or the other. Should the divine provide it with certainty, I have no doubt they would accept it, then believe it.

Btw, I'm not attacking you over this, should you feel that way. I am simply making an observation as an outsider gleaning information from the debates I've witnessed.

 

When an Atheist says; "There is no God", isn't that making a statement of fact? And what evidence is given to them to confirm there is no God? How does an Atheist know that no God exist in the absence of evidence to support that conclusion?... Despite popular opinion, I'm not being obstinate, and I do understand that atheist believe in nothing divine because they require evidence to confirm truth.. But I think in a way, that deciding something is false without the evidence to confirm its false could also be construed as a belief... Believing that God exist without the evidence to prove He exist requires faith, and believing that no God exist without the evidence to prove He doesn't exist requires?  I obviously don't think like the majority here, but it seems that in regards to God, whatever we decide to believe is based on our own perception of what's true or false...evidence be damned :)

Edited by Dan56
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2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Sorry, but your comment "I'd really like to buy a Brit" seemed like sarcasm to me, but perhaps I misinterpreted your brand of humor? Plus, the questions you submitted were very consistent with those that Atheist ask.. I guess fundamentalism and orthodoxy don't mesh.

 

 

When an Atheist says; "There is no God", isn't that making a statement of fact? And what evidence is given to them to confirm there is no God? How does an Atheist know that no God exist in the absence of evidence to support that conclusion?... Despite popular opinion, I'm not being obstinate, and I do understand that atheist believe in nothing divine because they require evidence to confirm truth.. But I think in a way, that deciding something is false without the evidence to confirm its false could also be construed as a belief... Believing that God exist without the evidence to prove He exist requires faith, and believing that no God exist without the evidence to prove He doesn't exist requires?  I obviously don't think like the majority here, but it seems that in regards to God, whatever we decide to believe is based on our own perception of what's true or false...evidence be damned :)

 

 

:whist:

 

 

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17 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Sorry, but your comment "I'd really like to buy a Brit" seemed like sarcasm to me, but perhaps I misinterpreted your brand of humor? Plus, the questions you submitted were very consistent with those that Atheist ask.. I guess fundamentalism and orthodoxy don't mesh.

 

 

When an Atheist says; "There is no God", isn't that making a statement of fact? And what evidence is given to them to confirm there is no God? How does an Atheist know that no God exist in the absence of evidence to support that conclusion?... Despite popular opinion, I'm not being obstinate, and I do understand that atheist believe in nothing divine because they require evidence to confirm truth.. But I think in a way, that deciding something is false without the evidence to confirm its false could also be construed as a belief... Believing that God exist without the evidence to prove He exist requires faith, and believing that no God exist without the evidence to prove He doesn't exist requires?  I obviously don't think like the majority here, but it seems that in regards to God, whatever we decide to believe is based on our own perception of what's true or false...evidence be damned :)

 

Alright, Dan.  You want evidence?  Be careful what you ask for.     :whist:

 

 

 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/tippling/2019/01/14/scientists-have-established-a-link-between-brain-damage-and-religious-fundamentalism-among-vietnam-vets/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Nonreligious&utm_content=44

 

 

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On 1/14/2019 at 7:39 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Sorry, but your comment "I'd really like to buy a Brit" seemed like sarcasm to me, but perhaps I misinterpreted your brand of humor? Plus, the questions you submitted were very consistent with those that Atheist ask.. I guess fundamentalism and orthodoxy don't mesh.

 

 

When an Atheist says; "There is no God", isn't that making a statement of fact? And what evidence is given to them to confirm there is no God? How does an Atheist know that no God exist in the absence of evidence to support that conclusion?... Despite popular opinion, I'm not being obstinate, and I do understand that atheist believe in nothing divine because they require evidence to confirm truth.. But I think in a way, that deciding something is false without the evidence to confirm its false could also be construed as a belief... Believing that God exist without the evidence to prove He exist requires faith, and believing that no God exist without the evidence to prove He doesn't exist requires?  I obviously don't think like the majority here, but it seems that in regards to God, whatever we decide to believe is based on our own perception of what's true or false...evidence be damned :)

Your question and answer, both in the same paragraph, Dan. Evidence is key to their acceptance of a conclusion.

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15 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Well, that was kinda interesting. Long winded for me, but interesting. :unsure:

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