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VonNoble
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1 hour ago, Brother Kaman said:

Do you believe the same if you exercised your free will outside the limits that the society you live in confines you to?

society limits free will in its nature.  imposing rules on others is a limiting, although most consent to it once they are capable to do so.  those who use force to enslave others usurp that free will.  those who hold slaves that were already slaves also usurp that free will.  

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52 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

society limits free will in its nature.  imposing rules on others is a limiting, although most consent to it once they are capable to do so.  those who use force to enslave others usurp that free will.  those who hold slaves that were already slaves also usurp that free will.  

 Making a choice to be enslaved or to die free is a free will decision just as driving within the speed limit to avoid a traffic ticket is a free will decision.

Edited by Brother Kaman
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16 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

Does free will only exist with unicorns and  butterflies only to crumble and cease when faced with adversity?

Non sequitur.  Or conclusion does not follow from facts given.  

Ad hominem.  Or, attack the person, and not the argument.

red herring.  Or when the arguer tries to divert attention by changing the subject.

existential fallacy.  an argument has a universal premise and a particular conclusion(i.e.  unicorns don't exist, so my argument must be invalid.)

appeal to the stone.  or, dismissing a claim as absurd without demonstrating proof of its absurdity.

definitional retreat.  or, changing the meaning of a word to deal with an objection raised in the original wording.

ignoratio elenchi, or an argument that may be relevant but misses the point, does not address the question.  for example, how does the existence of unicorns apply to the dictionary definition of free will?

false analogy, or an argument by analogy when the analogy is poorly suited.

thought terminating cliché, or a commonly used phrase sometimes passing as folk wisdom used to quell cognitive dissonance, conceal lack of thought entertainment, or move on to other topics, but either way ending with a cliché and not a point.

Tired of listing fallacies that apply...

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2 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

If man is more than just the physical representation of the laws of physics and does indeed have free will, can that free will be turned on and off by adversity, ie slavery or any other unpleasantness?

 

That depends.  Sometimes, free will has a price.  Like death.  In theory, we have free will.  If we can pay the price.

 

 

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It seems some of the Jewish women were herded into concentration camps (so free will to survive kicked in enough they  chose not get shot getting on the trains to the camps) (they did not know what they faced or in some cases even that they were going to camps.)  Once they arrived at the camps. ....some of them (a few)  were impregnated solely for the purpose of experimentation.  They were never going to be allowed to carry their "Jew-blood babies) to term. 

 

These women were raped.....and  once deemed to be pregnant ....some tied into beds - if necessary force fed....and poked and prodded all the way to full term.)  Once these forced to term women went into labor - a fully developed child tried to emerge as nature intended.   A fully developed human might be endowed with free-will.... a biologically an emerging infant is fully human by most definitions - (so there is a  question of free will and would exist at this stage of development)...back to the facts - so here this kid is - finding its way to the air-breathing world. 

 

One of the many horrors these woman were restrained (physically) - so that the baby could NOT emerge.  It would not and could not be permitted to exit.....ending in the death of both mother and child.  For hours (noted by the doctors watching the experiment) - for hours on occasion -  the mothers struggled against the restraints to force an opening wide enough of the child to emerge.  For hours sometimes the infants struggle to be free of the mother's body.    All observers kept notes.....and watched the two struggling. 

 

Now there are far fewer instinctive responses  stronger than birthing of a child. Both bodies were physically denied a choice.  Both died fighting for life.    A life not conceived freely.  A life forced into existence.  A life nurtured for months to full development. 

 

Sometimes people try to die. Try to starve to death.  Try to entice death to them. Try to force a shot to the head. And sometimes they are just forced to live. There is little free will in being FORCED to live.   

 

We do not allow anyone the right to die - in some cases now.  In some cases in suburbia - we force people to live who freely choose to die. 

Does free will cease when you are FORCED to live?

 

In the horror of the concentration camp....did either the mother or the child actually HAVE a choice to select that horrid death? Did they have free will to live?  If you chose torture over death and they do a bit too much water boarding - although you are choosing to live and struggle to breath - did you have free will in choosing death?   Some do...they gulp in the water to end the madness.   But some fight to breath and cannot....and they die trying so hard to exercise their free will to LIVE....the one where they chose a life of torture ....which is clearly choosing life - but alas!  They are killed by an over zealot torture person.  Did they then have free will after all?

von

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9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Sometimes, free will has a price. 

Always. Every choice you make limits the choices you have available in the future. There are always consequences and there is always a price that must be paid. It is only really a question of how dire the consequences and how dear the price. Because when the price is easy to pay, it is easy to overlook.

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2 hours ago, VonNoble said:

It seems some of the Jewish women were herded into concentration camps (so free will to survive kicked in enough they  chose not get shot getting on the trains to the camps) (they did not know what they faced or in some cases even that they were going to camps.)  Once they arrived at the camps. ....some of them (a few)  were impregnated solely for the purpose of experimentation.  They were never going to be allowed to carry their "Jew-blood babies) to term. 

 

These women were raped.....and  once deemed to be pregnant ....some tied into beds - if necessary force fed....and poked and prodded all the way to full term.)  Once these forced to term women went into labor - a fully developed child tried to emerge as nature intended.   A fully developed human might be endowed with free-will.... a biologically an emerging infant is fully human by most definitions - (so there is a  question of free will and would exist at this stage of development)...back to the facts - so here this kid is - finding its way to the air-breathing world. 

 

One of the many horrors these woman were restrained (physically) - so that the baby could NOT emerge.  It would not and could not be permitted to exit.....ending in the death of both mother and child.  For hours (noted by the doctors watching the experiment) - for hours on occasion -  the mothers struggled against the restraints to force an opening wide enough of the child to emerge.  For hours sometimes the infants struggle to be free of the mother's body.    All observers kept notes.....and watched the two struggling. 

 

Now there are far fewer instinctive responses  stronger than birthing of a child. Both bodies were physically denied a choice.  Both died fighting for life.    A life not conceived freely.  A life forced into existence.  A life nurtured for months to full development. 

 

Sometimes people try to die. Try to starve to death.  Try to entice death to them. Try to force a shot to the head. And sometimes they are just forced to live. There is little free will in being FORCED to live.   

 

We do not allow anyone the right to die - in some cases now.  In some cases in suburbia - we force people to live who freely choose to die. 

Does free will cease when you are FORCED to live?

 

In the horror of the concentration camp....did either the mother or the child actually HAVE a choice to select that horrid death? Did they have free will to live?  If you chose torture over death and they do a bit too much water boarding - although you are choosing to live and struggle to breath - did you have free will in choosing death?   Some do...they gulp in the water to end the madness.   But some fight to breath and cannot....and they die trying so hard to exercise their free will to LIVE....the one where they chose a life of torture ....which is clearly choosing life - but alas!  They are killed by an over zealot torture person.  Did they then have free will after all?

von

Free will is always there. The physical ability to exercise it may be lacking.

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3 hours ago, VonNoble said:

It seems some of the Jewish women were herded into concentration camps (so free will to survive kicked in enough they  chose not get shot getting on the trains to the camps) (they did not know what they faced or in some cases even that they were going to camps.)  Once they arrived at the camps. ....some of them (a few)  were impregnated solely for the purpose of experimentation.  They were never going to be allowed to carry their "Jew-blood babies) to term. 

 

These women were raped.....and  once deemed to be pregnant ....some tied into beds - if necessary force fed....and poked and prodded all the way to full term.)  Once these forced to term women went into labor - a fully developed child tried to emerge as nature intended.   A fully developed human might be endowed with free-will.... a biologically an emerging infant is fully human by most definitions - (so there is a  question of free will and would exist at this stage of development)...back to the facts - so here this kid is - finding its way to the air-breathing world. 

 

One of the many horrors these woman were restrained (physically) - so that the baby could NOT emerge.  It would not and could not be permitted to exit.....ending in the death of both mother and child.  For hours (noted by the doctors watching the experiment) - for hours on occasion -  the mothers struggled against the restraints to force an opening wide enough of the child to emerge.  For hours sometimes the infants struggle to be free of the mother's body.    All observers kept notes.....and watched the two struggling. 

 

Now there are far fewer instinctive responses  stronger than birthing of a child. Both bodies were physically denied a choice.  Both died fighting for life.    A life not conceived freely.  A life forced into existence.  A life nurtured for months to full development. 

 

Sometimes people try to die. Try to starve to death.  Try to entice death to them. Try to force a shot to the head. And sometimes they are just forced to live. There is little free will in being FORCED to live.   

 

We do not allow anyone the right to die - in some cases now.  In some cases in suburbia - we force people to live who freely choose to die. 

Does free will cease when you are FORCED to live?

 

In the horror of the concentration camp....did either the mother or the child actually HAVE a choice to select that horrid death? Did they have free will to live?  If you chose torture over death and they do a bit too much water boarding - although you are choosing to live and struggle to breath - did you have free will in choosing death?   Some do...they gulp in the water to end the madness.   But some fight to breath and cannot....and they die trying so hard to exercise their free will to LIVE....the one where they chose a life of torture ....which is clearly choosing life - but alas!  They are killed by an over zealot torture person.  Did they then have free will after all?

von

Free will is defined as the ability to act at ones own discretion.  If a person is unable to act at their own discretion, they obviously do not have free will.  Since a person might prefer to live than die, and could be given a choice between doing something they don't want to or dying(both options they would not choose at their own discretion), then NO...a person does NOT always have free will.  If a person freely chooses to die, and is forced to live, that is a choice against their discretion as well.

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11 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Demonstrating that free will can be defeated, by an outside force, is not the same as demonstrating that free will does not exist.  

Quite true.  And I hope I wasn't appearing as though that was what I was trying to demonstrate.  

 

On an aside...it baffles me, that I have to debate changing definitions on something as simple as free will.  It's in the dictionary.  Why try to make out like slavery is a choice?  I just don't grasp it...

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24 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Free will is defined as the ability to act at ones own discretion.  If a person is unable to act at their own discretion, they obviously do not have free will.  Since a person might prefer to live than die, and could be given a choice between doing something they don't want to or dying(both options they would not choose at their own discretion), then NO...a person does NOT always have free will.  If a person freely chooses to die, and is forced to live, that is a choice against their discretion as well.

This is my question too.   I do not yet have an anwser.   If I am forced to live did I I’d do I have free will choice?

von

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By the dictionary, if you are forced, it isn't free will.  Not that you NEVER had free will, but that particular choice is not based on free will.  It helps to understand that concept, I think, that free will is not a permanent state, nor guaranteed.  We may be born with free will, though many were born as slaves and brought up a specific way with specific education so as not to understand that concept as fully as possible.  We may be born with free will, but that does not mean we will keep it.  On the same note, a person who is born a slave(without free will), could gain that free will at a later date through circumstance.

 

It seems like a lot of people might be putting undue emphasis on the divinity of free will perhaps?  I don't think it's divine, I think it's a natural condition that can change like other natural conditions.

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1 hour ago, VonNoble said:

So free will is mental not physical?

We can think freely but not act freely? 

von

From your own example, it is difficult to exercise free will to be in your home when you are tied to a bed in a concentration camp. My free will is always subject to someone else's free will. But we have the free will to make the decisions that we are able to decide. If one was to have a gun to his head and was told to give up their money or die, one still has the free will to exercise any option available to them. Fight, give the money up or take a bullet to the head or any other choice that may present itself.  Choices. We all have choices. The choices are made freely.

Edited by Brother Kaman
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17 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said:

From your own example, it is difficult to exercise free will to be in your home when you are tied to a bed in a concentration camp. My free will is always subject to someone else's free will. But we have the free will to make the decisions that we are able to decide. If one was to have a gun to his head and was told to give up their money or die, one still has the free will to exercise any option available to them. Fight, give the money up or take a bullet to the head or any other choice that may present itself.  Choices. We all have choices. The choices are made freely.

Ah!   The example helped me to understand the point.  Thank you. 

von

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2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

By the dictionary, if you are forced, it isn't free will.  Not that you NEVER had free will, but that particular choice is not based on free will.  It helps to understand that concept, I think, that free will is not a permanent state, nor guaranteed.  We may be born with free will, though many were born as slaves and brought up a specific way with specific education so as not to understand that concept as fully as possible.  We may be born with free will, but that does not mean we will keep it.  On the same note, a person who is born a slave(without free will), could gain that free will at a later date through circumstance.

 

It seems like a lot of people might be putting undue emphasis on the divinity of free will perhaps?  I don't think it's divine, I think it's a natural condition that can change like other natural conditions.

Nearly every word in use in the English language is found in the dictionary. That has not stopped discussions of the meanings of those words here on the forum.

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