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10 hours ago, cuchulain said:

truth is not a popularity contest, or the earth would be flat and the sun revolve around us.  it is what it is, though, regardless of opinion.

The round Earth and Heliocentrism are more popular concepts than the alternatives you proffer. So if truth is a popularity contest, those concepts should be true, no? 

I believe that belief does not change truth. However, belief changes what we can accept as true, which changes how we react to the truth- and those who speak it. We may believe we want the truth, but if we believe lies to be the truth, what we really want is more lies. No?

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12 hours ago, mererdog said:

The round Earth and Heliocentrism are more popular concepts than the alternatives you proffer. So if truth is a popularity contest, those concepts should be true, no? 

I believe that belief does not change truth. However, belief changes what we can accept as true, which changes how we react to the truth- and those who speak it. We may believe we want the truth, but if we believe lies to be the truth, what we really want is more lies. No?

Such circular logic makes my world spin, getting me dizzy! LOL

But I don't know that the last statement would be necessarily true, though one option. Other may be: if we want to believe lies to be the truth, we may not actually know what truth really is.

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13 hours ago, mererdog said:

The round Earth and Heliocentrism are more popular concepts than the alternatives you proffer. So if truth is a popularity contest, those concepts should be true, no? 

I believe that belief does not change truth. However, belief changes what we can accept as true, which changes how we react to the truth- and those who speak it. We may believe we want the truth, but if we believe lies to be the truth, what we really want is more lies. No?

historically, the earth was considered flat.  did the truth change?

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1 hour ago, Key said:

If we want to believe lies to be the truth, we may not actually know what truth really is.

I often want to believe lies to be the truth, even when I know they are lies rather than truth. Life would be easier if I got to choose what I believe, rather than being stuck having beliefs that cause me discomfort.

Ah, to be able to wish away my feelings of guilt, shame, and personal responsibility. To be able to seamlessly replace worry with confidence and disappointment with triumph. To shape my inner world to my liking with no regard to the shape of the outer world. Such a pretty dream.

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1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

historically, the earth was considered flat.  did the truth change?

Maybe. I know of no way to objectively test claims that truth is subjective. Do you?

 

Also, history is not truth. It is a mishmash of collected subjective experience. Much of it is rumor, much of it is propaganda, and much of it is lost. We can never really know that belief in a flat Earth was popular. We can simply believe it or not believe it, depending on how we react to the evidence available to us.

Edited by mererdog

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Schrödinger's famous thought experiment involving a cat, some poison gas, and a decaying isotope illustrates our relationship to the truth rather well. Depending on interpretation, some will say "It is absurd, therefore it cannot be true" some will say "It is both absurd and true" and some wiil say "clearly we don't really understand what is going on here".

 

https://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/00/pwillen1/lit/msysip.htm

Edited by mererdog

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1 hour ago, mererdog said:

Maybe. I know of no way to objectively test claims that truth is subjective. Do you?

 

your or my inability to prove the reality of truth does not mean i should accept or reject any claim.  that would be poor logic.

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5 hours ago, cuchulain said:

historically, the earth was considered flat.  did the truth change?

No, knowledge did.

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5 hours ago, cuchulain said:

why doesn't it?

I don't know. You brought it up. I thought maybe there was a reason.

Edited by mererdog

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18 hours ago, mererdog said:

Care to prove a difference there? ;)

Naw, but I'll indulge ya. ;)

Truth is always there. Acknowledgement, thus knowledge, of it isn't. Truth doesn't change, awareness does.

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On 1/19/2018 at 9:43 AM, Key said:

Truth doesn't change

Sure about that? I mean, if it did, how would we know? In other words, is that truth, or wishful thinking?

Edited by mererdog

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4 hours ago, mererdog said:

Sure about that? I mean, if it did, how would we know? In other words, is that truth, or wishful thinking?

 

Its not wishful thinking, the truth can't change.  If it could, it wouldn't be the truth.. But of course, if you alter the circumstances by which a truth is established, then a truth can be altered or canceled.. e.g; I tell you that a lit stick of dynamite is about to explode, but you pull the fuse out preventing an explosion. What I said was true, but you changed the parameters by which a conclusion was derived. So if you told me that its raining out, and I'll get wet if I go outside, that's the truth,. But if I take an umbrella and don't get wet, did you lie? No, I just added a dimension (umbrella) to the equation which preventing your truth from occurring..  

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 4:51 PM, mererdog said:

I don't know. You brought it up. I thought maybe there was a reason.

I never did bring it up...just re read those posts.  Nope.  I sure didn't say anything about logic in this topic.

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On 1/12/2018 at 10:42 PM, VonNoble said:

Is an omission the same as a lie?

EN - Depends on whether the information was knowingly omitted or was an honest lapse in memory.

 

Is exaggeration the same thing as lying?

EN - Yes.

 

Do most people carefully tell the truth most of the time?    

EN - not in my experience.

 

Are we more likely to fudge for entertainment value, to impress....or to win when we lack proof?

EN - Yes, that has been my experience.

 

What is the most common tip off some one is lying?

EN - When a story doesn't make sense, I find it means I don't have either the whole story or the true story.

 

You can pick and choose the above starting thoughts.... with truth telling being in the news so often these days I am reflecting on that virtue.

EN - Candor is a virtue. However, consider what are the appropriate limits. I believe that one should always tell the truth but no one is required to tell more of the truth than anyone is entitled to. One has a right to privacy and no one is entitled to invade that privacy without just cause.

 

 As an employer, rarely did I have a day without an employee missing the truth (for various reasons) in conversations with me... over time I came to accept that FAR FROM everything I heard from staff was true.

EN - True, as an attorney I find testimonial evidence to be the least reliable. People's thoughts and recollections are often colored by multiple factors, only a few of which are motivated by an intent to deceive. People have bad memories, are prone to emotions which overthrow their ability to have unbiased recollections. Some have physical or mental disabilities that make their statements unreliable. Sometimes, the information requested does not lend itself to precise answers. And of course time plays a large factor. Our brains constantly filter the information we receive from our senses, so expecting unfiltered truth is not reasonable.

 

I never know what to do when kids lie.    With adults I usually let them continue as soon enough things unraveled....    or.... I wanted to see just where the scheme would headed.    I want to know WHY they chose to lie.     “Why” ....sometimes was an issue.

EN - I do the same.

 

What guesstimate do you have  on the % of honesty provided to you on average in a day?      Everyone is honest?   Probably 5% of what you hear today is not truthful?

EN - I believe it is higher. I would imagine 20% are knowing an willful lies. 20% is reasonably truthful, honest and accurate. 60% falls in the grey area where people believe things are more-or-less true when they say them but may be mistaken or have interpreted things inaccurately

 

If each of us has lied at least once in our adult life.... is it really highly prized character trait or a wink and nod game we all play?

EN - I think it depends on who you ask. I for one believe it is a moral weakness, a sin, and should be avoided by all people of good will.

 

When is it okay to lie?    If you have a good reason.... is it still a sin?

EN - I suppose many would say it is morally acceptable to lie in the avoidance of a greater evil. However, I adhere to a worldview which includes an objective moral code. Immoral acts do not become moral based on intent or results. An act is either moral or immoral on its own merits, not on tangentials. Therefore, a lie, for whatever the reason, is a sin.

 

 

thx 

von

 

See my replies in italics in the quote above.

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On 1/24/2018 at 2:21 PM, Ex Nihilo said:

See my replies in italics in the quote above.

I very much appreciate (and enjoyed) reading your responses.   Thank you VERY much.

von

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