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Is an omission the same as a lie?

 

Is exaggeration the same thing as lying?

 

Do most people carefully tell the truth most of the time?    

 

Are we more likely to fudge for entertainment value, to impress....or to win when we lack proof?

 

What is the most common tip off some one is lying?

 

You can pick and choose the above starting thoughts.... with truth telling being in the news so often these days I am reflecting on that virtue.

 

 As an employer, rarely did I have a day without an employee missing the truth (for various reasons) in conversations with me... over time I came to accept that FAR FROM everything I heard from staff was true.

 

I never know what to do when kids lie.    With adults I usually let them continue as soon enough things unraveled....    or.... I wanted to see just where the scheme would headed.    I want to know WHY they chose to lie.     “Why” ....sometimes was an issue.

 

What guesstimate do you have  on the % of honesty provided to you on average in a day?      Everyone is honest?   Probably 5% of what you hear today is not truthful?

 

If each of us has lied at least once in our adult life.... is it really highly prized character trait or a wink and nod game we all play?

 

When is it okay to lie?    If you have a good reason.... is it still a sin?

 

thx 

von

 

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41 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

Is an omission the same as a lie? If it results in harm to others

 

Is exaggeration the same thing as lying? No

 

Do most people carefully tell the truth most of the time? Yes  

 

Are we more likely to fudge for entertainment value, to impress....or to win when we lack proof? Yes

 

What is the most common tip off some one is lying? When they want something, they'll say what ever is necessary to get it.

 

You can pick and choose the above starting thoughts.... with truth telling being in the news so often these days I am reflecting on that virtue.

 

 As an employer, rarely did I have a day without an employee missing the truth (for various reasons) in conversations with me... over time I came to accept that FAR FROM everything I heard from staff was true.

 

I never know what to do when kids lie.    With adults I usually let them continue as soon enough things unraveled....    or.... I wanted to see just where the scheme would headed.    I want to know WHY they chose to lie.     “Why” ....sometimes was an issue.

 

What guesstimate do you have  on the % of honesty provided to you on average in a day?      Everyone is honest?   Probably 5% of what you hear today is not truthful?

 

If each of us has lied at least once in our adult life.... is it really highly prized character trait or a wink and nod game we all play?

Salesmanship usually requires exaggeration and withholding some truths, its usually an accepted trait. Dealing with salesmen usually  requires some cross examination and exploration to get all the real facts. Buyer beware

 

When is it okay to lie?    If you have a good reason.... is it still a sin? Bearing false witness is a lie, so its a sin. If you know the truth and change it to suit your own purpose, you present a dishonest prospective instead of a known fact. Lying to sway or convince others is lying, and imo, a sin.

thx 

von

 

 

I think there's a big difference between a white lie and one that's detrimental to others. A white lie, fib,  or exaggeration is usually harmless, but a lie to intentionally mislead or con someone else is never okay. I often exaggerate to make a point, or I'll say something that's not true to spare someone's feelings. A bad lie is to deliberately mislead someone to get what you want, like when a car salesman tells you a car runs great when he knows it has problems, or a politician says he's for repealing and replacing Obama Care and then votes against doing so. 

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Truth is power. Indiscriminately doling out power is irresponsible on the level that gets innocent people killed. Loose lips sink ships, after all. So there is nothing immoral about lying to the Nazis about the Jews in the attic, or refusing to tell the abusive husband where his wife is hiding.

 

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

I often exaggerate to make a point, or I'll say something that's not true to spare someone's feelings. A bad lie is to deliberately mislead someone to get what you want, 

But making a point or sparing someone's feelings is something you want, so if you lie to achieve those goals, isn't it a bad lie, by your stated definition?

Edited by mererdog

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7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I think there's a big difference between a white lie and one that's detrimental to others. A white lie, fib,  or exaggeration is usually harmless, but a lie to intentionally mislead or con someone else is never okay. I often exaggerate to make a point, or I'll say something that's not true to spare someone's feelings. A bad lie is to deliberately mislead someone to get what you want, like when a car salesman tells you a car runs great when he knows it has problems, or a politician says he's for repealing and replacing Obama Care and then votes against doing so. 

Thanks for your input, Dan56.

 

Fibbing to protect someon’s feelings is problematic.     I have no wisdom on how to regulate that one.   Sometimes the best of intentions in that regard do not always play out as intended.

 

you raised an interesting paradox.    If most people accept that politicians fudge the truth.... how do they get elected or better yet re-elected?    I am sort of chucking at the paradox.   We value honesty.... condemn those who do not speak truthfully..... but knowingly keep picking those type folks to be in charge....the salesperson type you describe.   Or maybe my sense of irony is just out of whack this morning......humans are such a complex creature.....:blink:

von

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18 hours ago, mererdog said:

But making a point or sparing someone's feelings is something you want, so if you lie to achieve those goals, isn't it a bad lie, by your stated definition?

 

I don't think so... When my kids were little, they'd color us pictures and we'd tell them the pictures were good and tape them on the refrigerator. The truth, the pictures were horrible, but for the sake of their self-esteem and to acknowledge their effort, we told a white lie. Likewise, If a wife thinks she looks good in some new cloths and proudly ask; "How do I look in this outfit?", we all know there is just one correct answer to that question, the truth be damned.

 

18 hours ago, VonNoble said:

Thanks for your input, Dan56.

 

Fibbing to protect someon’s feelings is problematic.     I have no wisdom on how to regulate that one.   Sometimes the best of intentions in that regard do not always play out as intended.

 

you raised an interesting paradox.    If most people accept that politicians fudge the truth.... how do they get elected or better yet re-elected?    I am sort of chucking at the paradox.   We value honesty.... condemn those who do not speak truthfully..... but knowingly keep picking those type folks to be in charge....the salesperson type you describe.   Or maybe my sense of irony is just out of whack this morning......humans are such a complex creature.....:blink:

von

 

I guess that sometimes its just easier to believe a lie. As Jack Nicholson said; "You can't handle the truth". Jesus said, "I am the Truth", and they crucified him.. Perhaps we don't value honesty in every situation? The truth is not always convenient and can interfere with how we want to perceive things.. I doubt that an honest politician could ever get elected.. We often choose to believe what we want to hear, true or not. Human emotions sometimes over-ride logic, we hope something is true even when we know deep down that it isn't.. Kind of like someone telling you, "Buy a lottery ticket and become a multi-millionaire", then we blow our money on unrealistic hope. We've all been gullible since day one; "The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!" We all want the truth, but often find a lie more preferable. :devil:
   

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3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Likewise, If a wife thinks she looks good in some new cloths and proudly ask; "How do I look in this outfit?", we all know there is just one correct answer to that question, the truth be damned.
  

 It took a while to get there, but  my wife and I value honest evaluation from one another. A bit of loving honesty from someone you trust to be on your side can save you from the brutal honesty of strangers, you know? And on the self-interested side of it, if I dont tell her what I don't like, I just ensure that I get more of it. 

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3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I don't think so... When my kids were little, they'd color us pictures and we'd tell them the pictures were good and tape them on the refrigerator. The truth, the pictures were horrible, but for the sake of their self-esteem and to acknowledge their effort, we told a white lie. Likewise, If a wife thinks she looks good in some new cloths and proudly ask; "How do I look in this outfit?", we all know there is just one correct answer to that question, the truth be damned.

 

 

I guess that sometimes its just easier to believe a lie. As Jack Nicholson said; "You can't handle the truth". Jesus said, "I am the Truth", and they crucified him.. Perhaps we don't value honesty in every situation? The truth is not always convenient and can interfere with how we want to perceive things.. I doubt that an honest politician could ever get elected.. We often choose to believe what we want to hear, true or not. Human emotions sometimes over-ride logic, we hope something is true even when we know deep down that it isn't.. Kind of like someone telling you, "Buy a lottery ticket and become a multi-millionaire", then we blow our money on unrealistic hope. We've all been gullible since day one; "The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!" We all want the truth, but often find a lie more preferable. :devil:
   

Thanks Dan56..... much in this provides good food for thought.

 

von

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22 hours ago, VonNoble said:

how do they get elected or better yet re-elected?

In modern American society, there is a widespread belief that, when it comes to politics, you have to order from the menu provided. It causes people to make "lesser evil" decisions that they then have to repeatedly justify to themselves in order to avoid the emotional stress of seeing themselves as supporters of evil. Each internalized justification for the past bad decisions makes it harder to make good decisions in the future.

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we claim it as a highly prized character trait for selfish reasons at times.  honest information usually leads to better informed decisions, so we want others to be truthful with us.  but being very egocentric creatures we think we know the best information to disiminate for others.  and at times when we dont know, we feel a need to show we do, so we fill in the blanks.

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21 hours ago, cuchulain said:

honest information usually leads to better informed decisions, so we want others to be truthful with us.  

You rarely become popular by speaking unpopular truths.

For the most part, honesty is only prized when opinions match- and truth is only valued when it is believed.

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very badly paraphrased:the buddha said something to the effect...if the truth is helpful,then tell it.if it will only cause harm,then don't.

 

yes,there is more to it than that.

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5 hours ago, mererdog said:

You rarely become popular by speaking unpopular truths.

For the most part, honesty is only prized when opinions match- and truth is only valued when it is believed.

 

Very true.. The honest truth is an evasive thing, and in my experience, people who demand it, often have a negative reaction when they get it. Kind of like Trump saying that Haiti is a crappy hole, then being branded a racist for stating the obvious.

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On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:54 AM, mererdog said:

You rarely become popular by speaking unpopular truths.

For the most part, honesty is only prized when opinions match- and truth is only valued when it is believed.

Truth shouldn't be a popularity contest.

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1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

Truth shouldn't be a popularity contest.

Of course, whether it should or it shouldn't, it is what it is. We often ask for the truth, yet we often punish those who give it to us. We may believe we want the truth, but if we don't know what the truth is, what is it that we really think we want? 

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21 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Very true.. The honest truth is an evasive thing, and in my experience, people who demand it, often have a negative reaction when they get it. Kind of like Trump saying that Haiti is a crappy hole, then being branded a racist for stating the obvious.

Trump's opinion may be honest, but it is just an opinion.* The truth is way more complicated. Most of the time, it is like we are describing a color-filled world in terms of shades of grey. It may be how we see it, but it isn't how it is.

 

*For the record, I have no rational reason to believe he said anything specific on this subject. Reports are contradictory and no one has provided any proof.

Edited by mererdog

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2 hours ago, mererdog said:

Of course, whether it should or it shouldn't, it is what it is. We often ask for the truth, yet we often punish those who give it to us. We may believe we want the truth, but if we don't know what the truth is, what is it that we really think we want? 

We don't look for truth. We look for understanding and agreement. Physics is an example. We think we understand how the earth and stars work so we devise formulas and math concepts in order to convince others to agree.

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2 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

We don't look for truth. We look for understanding and agreement. 

I tend to look for confirmation and comfort.

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21 hours ago, mererdog said:

Of course, whether it should or it shouldn't, it is what it is. We often ask for the truth, yet we often punish those who give it to us. We may believe we want the truth, but if we don't know what the truth is, what is it that we really think we want? 

truth is not a popularity contest, or the earth would be flat and the sun revolve around us.  it is what it is, though, regardless of opinion.

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