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VonNoble

Blame, Tame, or All The Same Games

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18 hours ago, VonNoble said:

The self is not to blame....

 

.....the choice is to blame ?

 

The self that made the choice is to blame.. 

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22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I don't know how to respond to your aphorism.  What's the question?  

I am not sure.... it is more a developing series of thoughts..... I am trying to collect into more concise (less free form) shape

 

von

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6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

The self that made the choice is to blame.. 

I am not sure that is true.    That thinking started the knot I am trying to untie... thx for joining me on the launch pad :blink:

von

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Karl you are/were wrong.

Karl you are bad/sinned.

Karl you were careless,thoughtless....

 

OR perhaps......

 

Karl I can see things turned out in an unexpected way ( then discuss the decision making it variables) verses the short hand conclusion Karl is flawed... more than likely the decision making though process is flawed or Karl’s inability to see his actions as others might see it... is in need of adjustment (Karl needs to appreciate he is not the center of the universe) ( he might have a teachable moment to grow up and mature)

 

If the person is “normal” in all cases.... the variables caused unintended outcomes and take always...the person is okay... the results not so much

 

The focus on YOU (person) rather than outcome/impact seems nothing more productive than lobbing snowballs it becomes a battle with even innocent bystanders taking hits... 

 

KARL may have made a perfectly logical decision with variables no one could have known in making that decision.    Karl may have been 100 % right...but the outcome was just unexpected... being right is not always enough

 

Another track....Making  mistakes is often how we learn....if this is normal... the process is neither good or bad.    It is at times necessary.

 

Assigning it to a negative blame with ensuing guilt..... seems counter productive, maybe.

 

Understanding the situation with less judgement upon the person and more thought in how to avoid repeating the same trajectory or the same rut... would yield better outcomes maybe

 

Karl things ended badly this time.    What did you learn from it.....might more useful than Karl you are a dunderhead.  

 

How do we all learn from Karl..... while Karl is also learning ?

 

Blame ( our centuries old approach) does not  seem to be benefiting Karl (or mankind) too much to be .....or do better..

 

i am am trying to work through a swirl of thoughts... sometimes  input from others helps to hone the thinking.... 

 

thc

 

von

 

 

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5 hours ago, VonNoble said:

I am not sure that is true.    That thinking started the knot I am trying to untie... thx for joining me on the launch pad :blink:

von

 

It depends I guess... If I made the choice to murder someone, your saying that the choice was wrong.. I agree, but I still think "the self that made the choice is to blame". A choice is just an action or result that emanates from a person. That's why we lock people up for making bad choices. If you chose to give money to a charity that helped others in need, the choice was beneficial, but the credit should go to you because it was your decision, your money, and your sacrifice.

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Guilt and shame are some of our most powerful motivators. That makes blame a very useful tool. What is useful will be overused.

I tend to think of life as a team sport, in that no one wins or loses based solely on their own efforts. It prompts me to search for my causal role in stories about strangers, both in terms of what is real and what is ideal. 

Am I making the best plays I can?

Should I just warm the bench on this one and let the veteran players handle it?

Have I been accidentally aiming at the wrong goal, scoring points against Team People?

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as i understand it,we are all responsible for our own choices,period.whether they are"good"or not is how other people see them.

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It has always been easier to place blame rather than accept it. The self is often pampered or guarded according to how we perceive an outcome to either be beneficial or destructive to the ego or physical body.

That said, choice is to blame, simply because it involves whether or not to cater to the self.

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49 minutes ago, Key said:

It has always been easier to place blame rather than accept it. The self is often pampered or guarded according to how we perceive an outcome to either be beneficial or destructive to the ego or physical body.

That said, choice is to blame, simply because it involves whether or not to cater to the self.

Cool. Now I cannot be blamed. The choice did it.

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I think distinctions need to be made-

 

There's a big difference between

-  one  unknowingly/unwittingly making a choice to act that accidentally yields undesirable results

and

-  one making a conscious decision to act despite foreknowledge of the undesirable results.

 

In the former, Karmic debt may be mitigated.

But in the latter case....  there's no dodging culpability.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

Cool. Now I cannot be blamed. The choice did it.

Maybe. But another view is that you created the choices, therefore the mastermind to blame. That pesky perspective thing again.

On that note, I think blame is placed according to the situation, right or wrong.

The question begs a more specific or defined phrasing, because as it is, the answer can be too broad.

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Curiouser and curiouser. The choice would not, and could not emenate from any other than the one who made it. Others may have made a similar choice, given similar starting conditions, but, no two things/people can occupy the same space/time nor share the same speed and trajectory in space time, and so, the choices of each are unique. Therefore, the person is the choice. And, perhaps, neither is to blame. 

Of course, it may all rest on the existence or non existence of free will. I am, (and I am sure others are getting tired of hearing it) doubtful on the topic.I think the idea of free will is an evolutionary feedback loop that allows society to manage individual anti social behaviors in a way that can reinforce socially beneficial causal forces.  But, then, perhaps the question is moot.

 

Edited by kokigami

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1 hour ago, Kingfisher said:

Who am I to judge?

Human. As it is human nature to judge, even when instructed not to do so.

To make a choice, is also to judge. What is right or wrong according to action or thought. Results derive from someone making a judgement of some kind.

I fear, as kokigami has stated, it is an infinity loop as to which is at fault, the choice or the person making the choice. Therefore, a third option (at the very least) can be considered, that the two are conjoined in the fault. One is not without the other.

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2 hours ago, Key said:

Therefore, a third option (at the very least) can be considered, that the two are conjoined in the fault. One is not without the other.

1st Rule of Motion: An object at rest remains at rest until acted upon by an outside force.

So...

Everything that happens, happens because something else happened. Every event is the result of something that was the result of something that was the result of something. 

I find that this can only be true if the universe exists as a closed system with no beginning or end, or if something exists as an exception to the rule. Either something can act without first being acted upon, or the concepts of before and after must be interchangeable at some scale.

Neither of those answers really feels satisfactory. 

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On 1/25/2018 at 6:35 AM, mererdog said:

1st Rule of Motion: An object at rest remains at rest until acted upon by an outside force.

So...

Everything that happens, happens because something else happened. Every event is the result of something that was the result of something that was the result of something. 

I find that this can only be true if the universe exists as a closed system with no beginning or end, or if something exists as an exception to the rule. Either something can act without first being acted upon, or the concepts of before and after must be interchangeable at some scale.

Neither of those answers really feels satisfactory. 

In a way, it still proves the point. One is not without the other. Without one, nothing is set in motion, acted upon or not.

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