VonNoble

Forgiveness is necessary?

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The more I this about this subject,  the more I think that forgiving oneself may be the hardest to do....

Especially when one has "reasoned" his way into committing an act that would be regretted by any individual capable of honest self-analysis....

 

"The man that says he has lived his life with no regrets, is either a liar or a fool." - Me

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Songster said:

The more I this about this subject,  the more I think that forgiving oneself may be the hardest to do....

Especially when one has "reasoned" his way into committing an act that would be regretted by any individual capable of honest self-analysis....

 

"The man that says he has lived his life with no regrets, is either a liar or a fool." - Me

 

 

 

 

Everything I have ever done, every decision I have made has led me where I am now. I am very happy with my life. I cannot regret anything that has brought me here. You may call me what you will.

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13 hours ago, Songster said:

The more I this about this subject,  the more I think that forgiving oneself may be the hardest to do....

Especially when one has "reasoned" his way into committing an act that would be regretted by any individual capable of honest self-analysis....

 

Yes.   Forgiving oneself is extremely difficult at times.  I agree.

Honest self-analysis is also often difficult.   

Rationalization is FAR easier talking to one's self.   

Talking to another might, at times, more effectively because they ask

questions, and too, they might point out inconsistencies.   

 

At times we say one thing, mean something different and lastly all humans

to some extent offer glimmers of contradiction between talk and action. 

 

13 hours ago, Songster said:

 

"The man that says he has lived his life with no regrets, is either a liar or a fool." - Me

 

 

Or maybe just struggling.   Regrets (and transgressions) (and guilt) (and anger) - are all 

items for which release, forgiveness and acceptance ask heavy lifting from our psyche 

I suspect. 

 

von

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10 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

Everything I have ever done, every decision I have made has led me where I am now. I am very happy with my life. I cannot regret anything that has brought me here. You may call me what you will.

 

You are in a GREAT place.   Congrats on that! 

 

I think you are correct.   Everything - good/bad - painful/easy - fun/joyous molds us to 

the person right here in this moment.  So lamenting any of it is unnecessary.

 

Perhaps the timber of the word "regret" is in play.

 

I have regret that I didn't catch on faster - but i don't regret any of the experiences that helped

to shape me...is a workable qualifier?   It indicates I "do" regret as a catch and release item.  ;)

Maybe.

 

I regret that I didn't have my parents with me longer.  They shaped a great deal of my pesona

and they provided a very nonjudgmental sounding board.  So I regret that life took them away

too early.    I do have regrets.    But in that context they are not obstacles to appreciation and

serenity. The regrets sometimes push appreciation up to the rim.   

 

Seeing THEN and missing THAT includes celebration overcoming challenges.

Still.   I respect your recognition and mastery of the process.

 

I often regret I did not seek forgiveness more quickly.  

There is zero reason NOT to forgive (at least in my view.) 

I live with heaps and heaps of gratitude that others forgive me so easily

and quickly. 

 

I regret the hurt I have inflicted on others.  Often unintentional.  Often due to inattentiveness

on my part.  Not maliciousness.  Frequently stupidity.  Self absorption.  Even if I am 

completely RIGHT and justified....if I had just asked more questions, assumed less and

had moved a  tiny bit slower...I could have accomplished the very same outcome 

more gently and kindly. 

 

von

 

von

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Regret is only the recognition of missed or lost possibilities of opportunities or experiences. Kind of like hindsight. One can look at the past, but nothing can be done to change it.

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20 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

Everything I have ever done, every decision I have made has led me where I am now. I am very happy with my life. I cannot regret anything that has brought me here. You may call me what you will.

In keeping with the theme here....

When I find that my actions or words may have caused offense to another (sometimes the realization is immediate, sometimes only after reflection and contemplation of the apparent consequence of the action) , I apologize as soon as I realize my offense.

With the utmost sincerity, I apologize.

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17 minutes ago, Songster said:

In keeping with the theme here....

When I find that my actions or words may have caused offense to another (sometimes the realization is immediate, sometimes only after reflection and contemplation of the apparent consequence of the action) , I apologize as soon as I realize my offense.

With the utmost sincerity, I apologize.

 

Really?  If you believe that, you have a short memory.  

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Really?  If you believe that, you have a short memory.  

Really? May be... May not.... Might be... Might not.... I don't recall....

Edited by Songster

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1 hour ago, Songster said:

Really? May be... May not.... Might be... Might not.... I don't recall....

 

Sadly, I do.  You have sent some remarkable barbs in my direction.  I was caught off guard by your insistence that you always apologize.

 

:sigh2:

 

You don't remember?

 

Never mind.  I have to do a better job of letting go.  

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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I recognize in my life that I have no control over what others think of me, nor should they have control over what I think of me.  An example, and kind of a crummy happening recently.  As many know I moved to Georgia.  What many may not know is that I also moved my in-laws with me.  I haven't really gotten along with them throughout my marriage, but I have always been civil at the least.  It seemed to me that they had a lot of misconceptions about me.  They lived with me 7 months rent and bill free, I simply considered this hospitality to be honest.  My father in law helped out around the house considerably while we were reconstructing certain aspects, adding in a bedroom, things along this nature.  We talked freely, we communicated amicably and it really seemed like we were getting along nicely.  They moved out, and less than a week went by before the mother in law starts telling my wife how I did nothing but sit around the entire time they lived here(keep in mind, my wife watched me do a lot of the work on the house).  This caught me off guard, and my first reactions were harsh.  Fortunately they were also internal.  I decided upon further introspection about the situation that I needed to remember I have no control over what others think or do.  No matter what I did, and I did try while they were here, I simply didn't make them happy with me.  They only appeared to be happy, I don't know if they feared getting thrown out if they showed their true colors or if they are simply two faced.  I tend to think the latter, because they were often two faced before we moved(and yes, I am aware I was asking for trouble).  In the end however, nothing I did was going to be enough to put them in a position to respect me any more than they did already, which apparently was very little.  

 

I have often been naïve in life, and I think I might have learned from this.  But one thing that constantly needs updating in my head computer is that I don't control anyone else in any way, only myself and how I respond.  I certainly don't seek the forgiveness of others if I think I have done nothing wrong and they do, unless they can convince me I was wrong anyway.  And I think that boils down this topic a great deal:  perceptions.  I don't seek to forgive others unless they seek it, and even then there is always the caveat, forgive but never forget.  

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19 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

I recognize in my life that I have no control over what others think of me, nor should they have control over what I think of me.  An example, and kind of a crummy happening recently.  As many know I moved to Georgia.  What many may not know is that I also moved my in-laws with me.  I haven't really gotten along with them throughout my marriage, but I have always been civil at the least.  It seemed to me that they had a lot of misconceptions about me.  They lived with me 7 months rent and bill free, I simply considered this hospitality to be honest.  My father in law helped out around the house considerably while we were reconstructing certain aspects, adding in a bedroom, things along this nature.  We talked freely, we communicated amicably and it really seemed like we were getting along nicely.  They moved out, and less than a week went by before the mother in law starts telling my wife how I did nothing but sit around the entire time they lived here(keep in mind, my wife watched me do a lot of the work on the house).  This caught me off guard, and my first reactions were harsh.  Fortunately they were also internal.  I decided upon further introspection about the situation that I needed to remember I have no control over what others think or do.  No matter what I did, and I did try while they were here, I simply didn't make them happy with me.  They only appeared to be happy, I don't know if they feared getting thrown out if they showed their true colors or if they are simply two faced.  I tend to think the latter, because they were often two faced before we moved(and yes, I am aware I was asking for trouble).  In the end however, nothing I did was going to be enough to put them in a position to respect me any more than they did already, which apparently was very little.  

 

I have often been naïve in life, and I think I might have learned from this.  But one thing that constantly needs updating in my head computer is that I don't control anyone else in any way, only myself and how I respond.  I certainly don't seek the forgiveness of others if I think I have done nothing wrong and they do, unless they can convince me I was wrong anyway.  And I think that boils down this topic a great deal:  perceptions.  I don't seek to forgive others unless they seek it, and even then there is always the caveat, forgive but never forget.  

 

You have mentioned your in-laws  in the past.  You said that they were Fundamentalist.  Unless I have my wires twisted.

 

The other details don't matter.  No matter what you do or don't do -- "If it ain't from God it's from the Devil".

 

With enemies like that, who needs friends?  Welcome to the dark side.

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3 hours ago, Songster said:

In keeping with the theme here....

When I find that my actions or words may have caused offense to another (sometimes the realization is immediate, sometimes only after reflection and contemplation of the apparent consequence of the action) , I apologize as soon as I realize my offense.

With the utmost sincerity, I apologize.

Thank you, Songster. There is no need to apologize,though I do appreciate your kindness in doing so.

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On 9/23/2017 at 7:59 AM, Key said:

Regret is only the recognition of missed or lost possibilities of opportunities or experiences. Kind of like hindsight. One can look at the past, but nothing can be done to change it.

 

When I first read that I agree as I often say that too - - can't do anything about having an unhappy childhood so let it go (or things like that)....however - after giving it some thought that is only partially accurate.   On the surface true enough.  But that hindsight might also be the gain of maturity from the experience..the gain of perspective.  A lesson learned.  So the process of learning from it (presumably so we don't repeat it) - - we will in fact change (or be changed by it)......

 

Perhaps we will own up to our own contribution to our residual guilt, frustration, pent up anger or whatever.....( maybe we release these emotions BY ASKING for forgiveness or at least offering an apology) might be in this mix somewhere.   I am still processing it but appreciate your giving me some running room to think on it.   Is forgiveness (or seeking it) necessary?  Beneficial?  still working on it....

von

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16 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

When I first read that I agree as I often say that too - - can't do anything about having an unhappy childhood so let it go (or things like that)....however - after giving it some thought that is only partially accurate.   On the surface true enough.  But that hindsight might also be the gain of maturity from the experience..the gain of perspective.  A lesson learned.  So the process of learning from it (presumably so we don't repeat it) - - we will in fact change (or be changed by it)......

 

Perhaps we will own up to our own contribution to our residual guilt, frustration, pent up anger or whatever.....( maybe we release these emotions BY ASKING for forgiveness or at least offering an apology) might be in this mix somewhere.   I am still processing it but appreciate your giving me some running room to think on it.   Is forgiveness (or seeking it) necessary?  Beneficial?  still working on it....

von

Hindsight and regret are only interpretations of what we may or may not have learned from our past, but because it is the past, it is too late to change it. We can, however, affect change of the present and future because of them.

Unhappy childhood isn't something a person likes to dwell or relive, understandably. What some psychologist suggest to help deal with them, is to focus on the positive memories. The smallest detail could lighten the trauma of the experience, if only a little, possibly more. Depends on the individual.

As for the topic of forgiveness...there have been studies released recently that say forgiveness is beneficial for the health and longevity of the person giving it. It is said to be like a weight or burden being lifted away. Scientifically, they can't pinpoint exactly why. I suspect that the body releases positive energy or endorphin, just like it does when a person smiles or laughs. Of benefit to the mindset for a sense of well being.

It's even been suggested even a fake smile releases endorphin from the brain for a feel good vibe. 

Edited by Key
Adding thought.

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On 10/16/2017 at 1:18 PM, Key said:

It's even been suggested even a fake smile releases endorphin from the brain for a feel good vibe. 

There have been some fascinating studies done on the effect of posture and expression on mood and perception. In one, randomly sampled pairs of subjects were sat across from each other and were given specific instruction regarding what postures and facial expressions to adopt while staring at each other for a period of time. At the end of each session, they took a quiz that included questions about the person they had stared at. Interestingly, if either person had adopted friendly body language, both subjects in the pairing would give each other noticeably better ratings on everything from appearance to probable intelligence level. And this is even though they both knew that the body language had been dictated by the experiment.

Edited by mererdog

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12 hours ago, mererdog said:

There have been some fascinating studies done on the effect of posture and expression on mood and perception. In one, randomly sampled pairs of subjects were sat across from each other and were given specific instruction regarding what postures and facial expressions to adopt while staring at each other for a period of time. At the end of each session, they took a quiz that included questions about the person they had stared at. Interestingly, if either person had adopted friendly body language, both subjects in the pairing would give each other noticeably better ratings on everything from appearance to probable intelligence level. And this is even though they both knew that the body language had been dictated by the experiment.

Yes, it is fascinating! I love learning about the power of the mind. Interesting thing about it, it seems we've barely even scratched the surface of what it can possibly do.

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On 9/22/2017 at 5:13 PM, Songster said:

The more I this about this subject,  the more I think that forgiving oneself may be the hardest to do....

Especially when one has "reasoned" his way into committing an act that would be regretted by any individual capable of honest self-analysis....

 

Like you, I gave this some additional thought.   

 

If we need forgiveness from another - it would make our happiness dependent on getting it, maybe.

It seems like it is possible to choose our own reaction to things - so maybe if we can forgive ourselves (as you note:  not the easiest thing to accomplish) but if we can and do....maybe seeking forgiveness is not all that important. 

 

hmmmmm...is it possible to make amends without seeking forgiveness, I wonder?

 

von

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31 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

 

Like you, I gave this some additional thought.   

 

If we need forgiveness from another - it would make our happiness dependent on getting it, maybe.

It seems like it is possible to choose our own reaction to things - so maybe if we can forgive ourselves (as you note:  not the easiest thing to accomplish) but if we can and do....maybe seeking forgiveness is not all that important. 

 

hmmmmm...is it possible to make amends without seeking forgiveness, I wonder?

 

von

 

 

Isn't this how families stay together, without flying apart?  You let things go -- and move on.  

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Isn't this how families stay together, without flying apart?  You let things go -- and move on.  

 

:kiss:... perhaps as there is truth in that..

But also not

 

Some members of my family have not spoken for years at a time.   Some if my in-laws are still not speaking.    Over our 45 year marriage both of us have served as peacemaker and negotiator to family enemies.   Often a condition of ever coming to the table to discuss it is a demand from someone that they hear an apology

 

For your own sanity sometimes it is smarter to just walk away from the most toxic members.    But sadly too, years are lost over a simple misunderstanding.     Getting either side to listen can be next to impossible with a simple I am sorry as the key to fixing it.    

 

Sadly it it has happened that family members die sure the are right.... and die alone because of the need to be right 

von

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4 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

:kiss:... perhaps as there is truth in that..

But also not

 

Some members of my family have not spoken for years at a time.   Some if my in-laws are still not speaking.    Over our 45 year marriage both of us have served as peacemaker and negotiator to family enemies.   Often a condition of ever coming to the table to discuss it is a demand from someone that they hear an apology

 

For your own sanity sometimes it is smarter to just walk away from the most toxic members.    But sadly too, years are lost over a simple misunderstanding.     Getting either side to listen can be next to impossible with a simple I am sorry as the key to fixing it.    

 

Sadly it it has happened that family members die sure the are right.... and die alone because of the need to be right 

von

 

 

Interesting perspective.  When I was 21, my parents divorced.  It had been a miserable marriage and a wretched divorce.  I sided with my mother.  My father's extended family -- my loving family -- exiled me.

 

Screw them all.  It's better to be alone, than to be with them.

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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