Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

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A label I sometimes use is "militant agnostic". The key statement would be "I don't know, and you sure as ** don't know either".

 

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1 hour ago, Seeker said:

A label I sometimes use is "militant agnostic". The key statement would be "I don't know, and you sure as ** don't know either".

 

 

It's funny.  A little combative for my taste.  I prefer, "I don't know and I don't care."  Still, your version does amuse me.

 

:D 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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16 hours ago, Seeker said:

A label I sometimes use is "militant agnostic". The key statement would be "I don't know, and you sure as ** don't know either".

 

i like your label.short and to the point.

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There used to be a group called "Evangelic Agnostics".  Their slogan was -- "I don't know and neither do you".  Very close.  

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

There used to be a group called "Evangelic Agnostics".  Their slogan was -- "I don't know and neither do you".  Very close.  

 

 

but if they didnt know then how could they honestly claim someone else didnt?

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3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

but if they didnt know then how could they honestly claim someone else didnt?

 

 

It's a philosophic point.  That some things are both unknown and unknowable.  Mostly God.  If God's existence is unknowable, then nobody knows whether or not God exists.  

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i get that. but acknowledging its not known to me doesnt make it unknowable in my opinion. theres just way too many times i didnt know and someone else did.

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2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i get that. but acknowledging its not known to me doesnt make it unknowable in my opinion. theres just way too many times i didnt know and someone else did.

 

Are you suggesting that God is Knowable?  Without fraud or illusion?  The world's best kept secret?  I'm going with probability.  If such proof existed, someone would have revealed it by now.  Or do you really think that the God believing world is HIDING evidence?  Maybe you think it's a closely guarded secret -- hidden away by a super secret society?  Or a crazy old hermit?  What are the odds that such explosive information is being hidden?  They would be rubbing our faces in it -- if it existed.  

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Are you suggesting that God is Knowable?  Without fraud or illusion?  The world's best kept secret?  I'm going with probability.  If such proof existed, someone would have revealed it by now.  Or do you really think that the God believing world is HIDING evidence?  Maybe you think it's a closely guarded secret -- hidden away by a super secret society?  Or a crazy old hermit?  What are the odds that such explosive information is being hidden?  They would be rubbing our faces in it -- if it existed.  

i dont know if god exists any more than you do. i tend to think not because i believe all things are knowable and nobody seems to know god.  but maybe hes just really good at hiding.

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9 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

I can only know what I know. I cannot know what another may or may not know. No one can speak for me and I can speak for no other.

On the subject of deities, this is true. Knowledge is singular in that regard. But for most other things, there are tests or questions for those. ;)

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20 minutes ago, Key said:

On the subject of deities, this is true. Knowledge is singular in that regard. But for most other things, there are tests or questions for those. ;)

Is that not what we are discussing?:gathering:

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10 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

I can only know what I know. I cannot know what another may or may not know. No one can speak for me and I can speak for no other.

 

 

True enough.  Objective knowing about God is not possible.  At least, not in the way we that know that water is H2O.    Whether you know anything about water or not, water is knowable.  That is the problem.   That brings us back to unknowable.  The kind of subjective knowing that you're describing is not useful.  Perhaps inspired, but not useful.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

i dont know if god exists any more than you do. i tend to think not because i believe all things are knowable and nobody seems to know god.  but maybe hes just really good at hiding.

 

It's a thought.  On a more practical note -- If God is hiding, the result is the same as God not existing.

 

The God that you're considering is the same trickster God -- that the Young Earth Creationists worship.  The world was created 6,000 years ago, with false evidence to make it seem billions of years old.  It sounds silly when they say it.  I don't want to emulate that kind of thinking.

 

I also prefer not to make excuses, for the total lack of evidence, for God's existence.  I leave that sort of task for the apologists.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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14 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

It's a thought.  On a more practical note -- If God is hiding, the result is the same as God not existing.

 

The God that you're considering is the same trickster God -- that the Young Earth Creationists worship.  The world was created 6,000 years ago, with false evidence to make it seem billions of years old.  It sounds silly when they say it.  I don't want to emulate that kind of thinking.

 

I also prefer not to make excuses, for the total lack of evidence, for God's existence.  I leave that sort of task for the apologists.  

 

 

 

 

as i said, i dont believe anyway.  the world is full of excuses for things that have no definitive proof, and sometimes things that do have proof.  just ask any prison guard.

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

It's a thought.  On a more practical note -- If God is hiding, the result is the same as God not existing.

 

The God that you're considering is the same trickster God -- that the Young Earth Creationists worship.  The world was created 6,000 years ago, with false evidence to make it seem billions of years old.  It sounds silly when they say it.  I don't want to emulate that kind of thinking.

 

I also prefer not to make excuses, for the total lack of evidence, for God's existence.  I leave that sort of task for the apologists.  

 

 

 

 

Hmmm...that does sound a lot like Loki.

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

True enough.  Objective knowing about God is not possible.  At least, not in the way we that know that water is H2O.    Whether you know anything about water or not, water is knowable.  That is the problem.   That brings us back to unknowable.  The kind of subjective knowing that you're describing is not useful.  Perhaps inspired, but not useful.

 

 

 

 

Objective knowing about G/god may or may not be possible now. That does not mean it will never be. I believe that ultimately science will prove that G/god cannot exist. I believe that physics has already proven that, though I think I am in a minority. At the same time, I have no idea what another person has learned about the existence or non existence of G/god. All I know about it one way or the other is what I have been told, either verbally or by written words of scholars religious or otherwise.

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This may only highlight how much we still don't know, but may have some relevance to the discussion. 

I remember a Reader's Digest article that questioned the existence of God, or if prayer was indeed of any help. (Not sure which was the main topic of it.) Anyway, in it a doctor had done a series of brain scans on people to determine if anything happens while people pray compared to anything else. He seemed to find that there was an area of the brain that appeared to be active during the prayer moments but not any other time. And, always, it seemed to provide a sense of calm to the test subject. 

As he was a doctor of science, he concluded he couldn't accept that it was proof of God or anything divine, but also couldn't accept that there wasn't something unexplained happening that was perhaps outside the normal.

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It's a thought.  On a more practical note -- If God is hiding, the result is the same as God not existing.

The apparent result is the same, but the actual result might differ. The distinction I make there is important because ignorance is not protective- what we don't know can hurt us. If a tiger is hiding, it will seem as if the tiger does not exist... right up until it pounces. 

 

Expressing openness to the possibility of a hidden God is fundamentally different than apologetics. In the first, a person is admitting ignorance of the truth. In the second, a person is attempting to prove that they know the truth, even if only that they know the truth is unknowable.

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27 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said:

I believe that ultimately science will prove that G/god cannot exist. I believe that physics has already proven that, though I think I am in a minority. 

I would love to know your reasons.

Edited by mererdog
** typos

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