Diego_008

The Noble Qur'an, Hadith, and other matters.

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I am reviewing the Noble Qur'an and Sahi al-Bukhari, as well as Riyad us Saliheen. And a biography of the Prophet Muhammad. I have read the Qur'an three times, in various translations, and have learned small parts of it in Arabic.

 

What are people's basic perspectives on the Qur'anic text? What about the other documents I mentioned? Thoughts?

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27 minutes ago, Diego_008 said:

I am reviewing the Noble Qur'an and Sahi al-Bukhari, as well as Riyad us Saliheen. And a biography of the Prophet Muhammad. I have read the Qur'an three times, in various translations, and have learned small parts of it in Arabic.

 

What are people's basic perspectives on the Qur'anic text? What about the other documents I mentioned? Thoughts?

 

 

I have read parts of the Qur'an.  In general tone, it is -- Biblical.    The faithful get Paradise.  The rest of us get Perdition.  

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35 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I have read parts of the Qur'an.  In general tone, it is -- Biblical.    The faithful get Paradise.  The rest of us get Perdition.  

Well, yes. The Abrahamic religions were ever thus. Judaism kind of got past it. But Christianity and Islam are still there. Islam does allow the possibility that Jews, Christians, and Sabians (possibly Madaeans or Harranians), known as People of the Book, may have a shot at Paradise.

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7 hours ago, Diego_008 said:

Well, yes. The Abrahamic religions were ever thus. Judaism kind of got past it. But Christianity and Islam are still there. Islam does allow the possibility that Jews, Christians, and Sabians (possibly Madaeans or Harranians), known as People of the Book, may have a shot at Paradise.

 

 

Between the Christian Hell and the Islamic Hell, which one am I supposed to be afraid of?  Piss to all the fear mongers.  A plague on them both.  

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Well, I am not so sure I agree with you there. It seems to me that some behaviour is just awful, and deseves some kind of punishment. Of course, the Muslim Hell is a bit like Orthodox Christian concepts, wherein there are two layers, Hades and Gehenna, although the Muslims do not name it in that manner.  But Hell is not NECESSARILY permanent to a Muslim or an Orthodox. Catholics have an analogous concept, Purgatory,  but that IS a bit different, nonetheless. I do NOT accept Luther's simplified Heaven and Hell for all Eternity. There almost has to be a Hades/Sheol in there to account for the fact that most of us are not immediately worthy of Heaven, nor of Eternal Hell (Gehenna), aside from the truly awful (Stalin, Pol Pot), or the truly blessed.

Edited by Diego_008

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The punishment for awful behavior is the same as the reward for good behavior.  We all die.  I think a lot of people believe death is a negative thing, that it's a horror inflicted on us, that...well, you get the idea, I suppose.  A lot of people think coffee is horrible too.  I personally think liver is horrible.

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10 minutes ago, cuchulain said:
Quote

The punishment for awful behavior is the same as the reward for good behavior.  We all die.

This much is obvious. But to say a person can behave like a total arse without fear of any punishment from an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good Deity seems a bit absurd to me. If human justice were perfect, I MIGHT buy it. But that is obviously not the case.

Quote

I think a lot of people believe death is a negative thing, that it's a horror inflicted on us, that...well, you get the idea, I suppose.  A lot of people think coffee is horrible too.  I personally think liver is horrible.

Comparing eternal life to coffee or liver strikes me as illogical in the extreme.

 

Edited by Diego_008

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RevTom   
4 hours ago, Diego_008 said:

Well, I am not so sure I agree with you there. It seems to me that some behaviour is just awful, and deseves some kind of punishment. Of course, the Muslim Hell is a bit like Orthodox Christian concepts, wherein there are two layers, Hades and Gehenna, although the Muslims do not name it in that manner.  But Hell is not NECESSARILY permanent to a Muslim or an Orthodox. Catholics have an analogous concept, Purgatory,  but that IS a bit different, nonetheless. I do NOT accept Luther's simplified Heaven and Hell for all Eternity. There almost has to be a Hades/Sheol in there to account for the fact that most of us are not immediately worthy of Heaven, nor of Eternal Hell (Gehenna), aside from the truly awful (Stalin, Pol Pot), or the truly blessed.

It is curious that a Christian staple, the concept of hell, is never mentioned in the Bible until the New Testament.  The names ascribed to mean hell do not necessarily mean hell in the common context. I for one, am a christian who does not believe in hell neither in theory nor physical location. The thought of everlasting fire and burning in hell comes from The Valley of Hinnom, later spoken of as Gehenna in Aramaic. This is the valley south of Jerusalem where the inhabitants would take their rubbish and burn it. The fires were ever burning, or at least smoldering. Another reference to what many think of as hell is Sheol, which was the Hebrew term for the abode of the dead, but not a place of eternal damnation and punishment. Nowhere in the Bible is there a place of eternal damnation and punishment until the New Testament.  I for one, am a christian who does not believe in a place of eternal  and fiery punishment. I do not believe that God would so subject a soul to eternal agony. It seems to me one of the biggest issues man has to come to terms with is the cessation of existence. i like the metaphor I bring to people in study classes from time to time: If I have painstakingly set up an aquarium and stocked it with all types of beautiful fish, I would (and have) do everything I can to keep it a healthy and vibrant aquarium community. If one of the fish turns out to be a bully, I do not put it where it will be in pain: I either remove it and put it in another aqurium where it won't bully the fish there, or i kill it...no lingering death, no long term suffering. I just remove the disturber of peace. I cannot imagine 

God doing otherwise.

Edited by RevTom
incomplete sentence

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2 hours ago, Diego_008 said:

 

I do not disagree with your right to believe in that all powerful, all knowing, and all loving entity...I only assert my right to tell you I don't believe in that being.

Why don't I believe?  Because I have not been presented with what I consider appropriate evidence to believe.  I believe that those three qualities combined are self defeating, but that is just my logic at work.  If you dislike my logic, well...it isn't yours, now is it?

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33 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

I do not disagree with your right to believe in that all powerful, all knowing, and all loving entity...I only assert my right to tell you I don't believe in that being.

Why don't I believe?  Because I have not been presented with what I consider appropriate evidence to believe.  I believe that those three qualities combined are self defeating, but that is just my logic at work.  If you dislike my logic, well...it isn't yours, now is it?

Logic simply is. There cannot be two forms of logic, mine and yours. Logic IS. Now, one us of may be right, and the other wrong, or we may BOTH be wrong. But we cannot both be right together when we believe mutually exclusive concepts.

 

And I do not dispute your right to believe in anything, or not, as you choose. But I dispute the idea that there can be TWO types of logic, both accurate.

Edited by Diego_008

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36 minutes ago, RevTom said:

It is curious that a Christian staple, the concept of hell, is never mentioned in the Bible until the New Testament.  The names ascribed to mean hell do not necessarily mean hell in the common context. I for one, am a christian who does not believe in hell neither in theory nor physical location. The thought of everlasting fire and burning in hell comes from The Valley of Hinnom, later spoken of as Gehenna in Aramaic. This is the valley south of Jerusalem where the inhabitants would take their rubbish and burn it. The fires were ever burning, or at least smoldering. Another reference to what many think of as hell is Sheol, which was the Hebrew term for the abode of the dead, but not a place of eternal damnation and punishment. Nowhere in the Bible is there a place of eternal damnation and punishment until the New Testament.  I for one, am a christian who does not believe in a place of eternal  and fiery punishment. I do not believe that God would so subject a soul to eternal agony. It seems to me one of the biggest issues man has to come to terms with is the cessation of existence. i like the metaphor I bring to people in study classes from time to time: If I have painstakingly set up an aquarium and stocked it with all types of beautiful fish, I would (and have) do everything I can to keep it a healthy and vibrant aquarium community. If one of the fish turns out to be a bully, I do not put it where it will be in pain: I either remove it and put it in another aqurium where it won't bully the fish there, or i kill it...no lingering death, no long term suffering. I just remove the disturber of peace. I cannot imagine 

God doing otherwise.

I DO know about the Valley of Hinnom, later called Gehenna. Jews to this day do not believe in Hell as such. I also know about Sheol, which is known in LXX Greek as Hades.

 

But that is not the point. The NT does speak of Hell, and at least part of it IS eternal. I am not sure how any Christian can get around that.

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1 hour ago, Diego_008 said:

Logic simply is. There cannot be two forms of logic, mine and yours. Logic IS. Now, one us of may be right, and the other wrong, or we may BOTH be wrong. But we cannot both be right together when we believe mutually exclusive concepts.

 

And I do not dispute your right to believe in anything, or not, as you choose. But I dispute the idea that there can be TWO types of logic, both accurate.

It sounds like you like to play word games.  I wish you well on your path.

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6 hours ago, cuchulain said:

The punishment for awful behavior is the same as the reward for good behavior.  We all die.  I think a lot of people believe death is a negative thing, that it's a horror inflicted on us, that...well, you get the idea, I suppose.  A lot of people think coffee is horrible too.  I personally think liver is horrible.

Having terminal stomach cancer, among other painful illnesses, is also a very negative thing. Having worked in end-care, in the past, death doesn't begin to look like the worst thing that can happen to a person. Just sayin'. 

2 hours ago, Diego_008 said:

I DO know about the Valley of Hinnom, later called Gehenna. Jews to this day do not believe in Hell as such. I also know about Sheol, which is known in LXX Greek as Hades.

 

But that is not the point. The NT does speak of Hell, and at least part of it IS eternal. I am not sure how any Christian can get around that.

Yet another reason for some of us to entirely avoid the path of Abraham...there's more trees, over here! ;)

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2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

It sounds like you like to play word games.  I wish you well on your path.

No. But with a degree in Philosophy, I DO know how Aristotelian Logic, and Basic Symbolic Logic, both work. But good luck to you.

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54 minutes ago, the Hearthwitch said:

Having terminal stomach cancer, among other painful illnesses, is also a very negative thing. Having worked in end-care, in the past, death doesn't begin to look like the worst thing that can happen to a person. Just sayin'. 

Yet another reason for some of us to entirely avoid the path of Abraham...there's more trees, over here! ;)

I absolutely agree that death is not the worst thing that can occur to a person. And having been through severe medical problems in my life, where I faced death many a time, having been homeless twice, and having had numerous other horrible things happen to me, I agree, death, to the person who has endeavoured to live a good life, is far from awful. And death for one's ideals is even better.

 

As far as avoiding Abraham's Path, Observant Jews neither avoid it, nor believe in Hell as such.

 

And many non-Abrahamic Paths have Hell, or Hells plural. Hinduism is an example. Buddhism, whether theistic or non-, does. Voodoo does. Santeria does. Shinto does, depending on the believer. So, it really depends on who you ask. And then there are the Hells we ourselves create.

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9 hours ago, Diego_008 said:

Well, I am not so sure I agree with you there. It seems to me that some behaviour is just awful, and deseves some kind of punishment. Of course, the Muslim Hell is a bit like Orthodox Christian concepts, wherein there are two layers, Hades and Gehenna, although the Muslims do not name it in that manner.  But Hell is not NECESSARILY permanent to a Muslim or an Orthodox. Catholics have an analogous concept, Purgatory,  but that IS a bit different, nonetheless. I do NOT accept Luther's simplified Heaven and Hell for all Eternity. There almost has to be a Hades/Sheol in there to account for the fact that most of us are not immediately worthy of Heaven, nor of Eternal Hell (Gehenna), aside from the truly awful (Stalin, Pol Pot), or the truly blessed.

 

 

Then these are places?  Like New York?  

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7 hours ago, Diego_008 said:

 

 But to say a person can behave like a total arse without fear of any punishment from an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good Deity seems a bit absurd to me.

 

 

How odd that you would say that.  I find the existence of such a god to be the absurdity.  

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14 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Then these are places?  Like New York?  

Whoever said they were geographical places?

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7 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 But to say a person can behave like a total arse without fear of any punishment from an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good Deity seems a bit absurd to me.

 

 

How odd that you would say that.  I find the existence of such a god to be the absurdity.  

You can certainly think that if you choose. It's a totally free country (well, not really; we are becoming more like a Police State every day, what with the Patriot Act still being enforced by such lovely groups as the NSA, and the TSA groping us when we fly, but religion, at least for NOW, has not been effected). But you can also be wrong. Or I can be. Or we BOTH can be. But we cannot BOTH be right and think mutually exclusive things.

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2 minutes ago, Diego_008 said:

You can certainly think that if you choose. It's a totally free country (well, not really; we are becoming more like a Police State every day, what with the Patriot Act still being enforced by such lovely groups as the NSA, and the TSA groping us when we fly, but religion, at least for NOW, has not been effected). But you can also be wrong. Or I can be. Or we BOTH can be. But we cannot BOTH be right and think mutually exclusive things.

 

 

Alright.  Your point?  I'm an Agnostic.  I don't believe.  I don't disbelieve.  I do think that swallowing a belief, like God, with no evidence at all -- is silly.  A belief without evidence, can be disdained without evidence.  

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